TW into public hands

#1

Maybe not a topic for light hearted - but do you think TW can replace Adobe PDF as the premium document distribution system of the internet?

No one can replace PDF? Are you insane! That was said years ago about Xerox. Where is Xerox today? Who knows - replaced by Adobe.

What are your ideas? TW has the foundation needed to do it - jeromy, mohammid, eric and others have provided the platform - but needs help to get into public hands - so please vote - saying ‘all’ is BS - pick where TW should concentrate its efforts:

  1. Focus as a business communication product?
  2. Focus on making a social media information delivery system?
  3. Naw - keep just for us techies to use?

I’m afraid TW will ultimately die in obscurity, like Smalltalk - best operating system ever imagined (Alan Kay) but never left the techie world (Tweak, Pharo). I see this same pattern happening to TiddlyWiki - and is a shame.

Your comments?

Poc2go
PotOfCoffee2Go

1 Like
A new way to read ebooks in TiddlyWIki
#2

Well it has being obscure for more than a decade and does not look like dying yet.

Of course PDF’s can be hosted within tiddlywiki as well.

However I think what you may be suggesting is using tiddlywiki as what I would call a “Smart Document”. In fact tiddlywiki can almost act like a document embedded inside it’s own “Document Management platform” and I am all for this.

Why PDF is popular?

  1. Free viewers are pervasive
  2. They can be distributed as URL’s or attachements
  3. In some ways PDF’s are somewhat defined by their own limitations.
  4. PDF’s are closely related to the paper document and can be readily printed

Tiddlywiki

  1. Free view in the browser but the browser needs to be secured
  2. Tiddlywiki can do this but the native html file is often blocked.
  3. TiddlyWiki has little or no limitations, this makes the out of the box solution too complex
  4. There remains issues dealing with pagination when exporting / printing from tiddlywiki

I think it tiddlywiki seems to have dies, it would be the same way in which “Linux died”, it is not a mainstream desktop but linux flavors, drive most network/router gear, mobile’s, TV’s and multi-media devices.

Tiddlywiki is already “public”, just as Logo or plasticine is public, except tiddlywiki is also free. Tiddlywiki democratises the use of computers, the internet and software but remains somewhat niche.

Personally I believe specific implementations or editions of tiddlywiki are what will gain “Public” prominence and then ultimately as a platform that drives specific implementations or editions.

  1. I have done this with “client customised” website/document, a but Smart Documents and other solutions are possible.
  2. Do say more on what you are thinking here, but I would love to see a Social media solution where we totally own our personal presence, like a Node.
  3. Always, but we do like sharing.
#3

Hi all,

@TW_Tones thank you for your post. Each item you have highlighted is worth a Discord discussion in its own right.

Of course, TW is not going to die soon - or at least as long as I’m alive, just being Devil’s Advocate to engage a response. A vast majorty of my email bodies are ‘See Attached’ which is a TWiki. I have story river, tiddlers composed of wikiText, markdown, railroad diagrams, images, videos, mind maps, iframes (no click required - already loaded), D3 interactive diagrams, forms that submit to my server, login and encryption when required, the list goes on.

All works on Windows, Apple, Linux in all its flavors, Android, Termux, iPad, Smartphones - within limits even works on a flip-phone! Never tried it, but bet would work on XBox and PS4. Without installing anything but a browser - wouldn’t even buy a machine that doesn’t have a browser.

No issues with versions. Today I could publish a wiki in Classic v2 - and would work just as well as it did 12 years ago. As an exercise do that, you’ll discover just how far TW has come - TW is a different animal today because of the dedication of original developers and community.

I know that I am preaching to the choir, I’m just a long time user - not a developer, but even I’m frustrated that TW hasn’t gone mainstream. There is so much stuff out there that is full of bling, bloat, and bullsh*t; when software comes along that is unique, supported, mature, great community, and an outstanding product what does it take to break through that glass ceiling.

Anyway - that’s my rant, probably tomorrow i’ll wish I never posted it. lol. Just had to get it off my chest.

poc2go

4 Likes
#4

I would recommend to have a look at https://github.com/TWPUB/TWPUB-Tools
It is an effort to distribute ebooks as Tiddlywiki file.

It packs the ebooks as plugin
it has tools to annotate
it has TOC

Excerpts from TWpub

TWPUB is an experiment to explore new formats for electronic publications that encourage readers to reuse and remix material, and support active reading.

We re-imagine electronic publications as dynamic, mouldable, customisable shared cultural assets. Our goal is to create an ecosystem of readers and libraries/stores that make it easy to create and consume these new-style publications. We hope that readers will come for the great experience, publishers will come to reach the readers, and that authors will be delighted with the increased reader engagement.

6 Likes
#5

I didn’t find it an enjoyable reading experience. Among other things, I got this constantly after loading W&P

image

I could enumerate the problems, but it would probably just upset people.

And there’s the meta problem – almost no modern content is available. Everything new is locked with DRM. I don’t think people avoid reading W&P because they don’t like the epub format, they avoid W&P because it’s W&P.

2 Likes
#6

I might avoid it if I knew what W&P was. Then again, I might not. Who knows?

#7

Every time someone tells Smalltalk is dead, I remember the Mark Twain’s attributed quote on “reports of my death are greatly exaggerated”. Not only Smalltalk is alive and kicking, but interacting in (hopefully) interesting ways with TW, as showcased in the TiddlyWikiPharo and critical code/data literacy curriculum thread..

For me is pretty difficult to relate with conflation of success and popularity. It seems pretty ingrained in the US culture, at least from what we can see over here. From teenager TV dramas and the importance of being popular in high school, to romantic comedies, where the key moment in a couple needs to be solved in public with cheering and applause from strangers, from business reports about user growth and massive earnings.

I read the success of TW, and Pharo for that matter, in a different way, related with how they are meaningful for the ones who use and develop on them, and particularly those who are under served by more popular tech stack/languages, for example grassroots communities. They’re both kind of a “secret” weapon to prototype and deliver agile solutions to clients and communities. I have packaged some of them using TW in 2009 and will be doing that by combining both technologies this year (I’ll share more details when they’re ready). I think also the the TWPub is a far superior format for active annotated and connected reading, and a good example of how to provide improvements on qualitative experience instead of looking for the quantitative approach.

So I agree with @TW_Tones and @Mohammad about different paths for TW success stories, not related with popularity or replacing what is already there, but with providing consultancy and community advantages for more meaningful and qualitative differences for adopters/developers. As long as the communities around those technologies keep vibrant and evolving to provide support and agency to the members in their different endeavors, I don’t care about big numbers.

#8

War and Peace

– This is buffer text to reach the 20 char min which Discourse just knows is the difference between a useful and non-useful post because a complete answer to a question couldn’t possibly be contained in less than 20 characters. –

2 Likes
#9

Hi all,
Talking the success of TW and the reason I got so frustrated is because it is so important to some people.

My family is huge and many of us are/have been in the service and have friends all over the world. Using my email server with a mailbox just for this - we attach/publish a merged TiddlyWiki to a restricted subscription list of friends and family. Some are stationed in war torn places where access to the internet is limited. They have email so save the TW on their device. Top of each tiddler has new-here - looks like ‘reply’. Tags it, basically makes a thread. When ready - every few weeks - attach their updated TW and reply to the email.

A node JavaScript process opens the attachments and extracts, prunes, and merges tiddlers. My grand-daughter goes in and handles the orphans, missing, replies that are attached to shadow tiddlers (lol), that kind of stuff. She uses the TOC mechanism clean up branches that can happen.

But, my fault - I sent using the wrong ‘empty.html’. Most people don’t even know TiddlyWiki! Is using nico Notebook which is mobile friendly and appears like a Android-ish app. Basically is a header/footer (on mobile) that stays visible all the time - its search is the main interface - how you find stuff. Sidebar is rarely, if ever used.

Is really important for people that use it - and some content fairly private in nature, family stuff. People out there got frustrated, my grand-daughter got frustrated, I got frustrated.

TiddlyWiki is the only software that can do this, unless somebody can suggest something else.

This is not the forum for ranting, please accept my apology. Squared away now - All good in the hood. stuff happens.

On the plus side, @Mohammad suggestion about TWPUB, I didn’t know anything about it. That has a lot of possibilities to solve the merging and sequencing issues that come up. Definitely going investigate further - I think it will have components that I can use.

poc2go

3 Likes
#10

@xcazin can give good advice here!

1 Like
#11

We are working on a Pharo+Fossil solution for having collaborative edition of shared TW with tiddlers versioning, extraction, merging, and so on. It is thought for places where connectivity is intermittent. It may help also in contexts like the ones you’re describing. Once we have finished some test, I’ll share results over here.

1 Like
#12

@Offray - Just to get my head wrapped around it - I know Pharo - but you talkin’ Fossil - the SCM from the SQLite guys? - or I am in left field?

#13

Yes, you’re right. Our alternative “stack” combines:

  • Pharo/GT for desktop live coding.
  • TiddlyWiki for web live coding and dynamic Single Page Applications.
  • Markdeep and Markdown/Pandoc for static HTML/PDF publishing.
  • Fossil SCM for web hosting and distributed collaboration.

Again, it is related with the idea of having a good expressiveness/simplicity ratio. And it is refreshing being able to arrange such stacks without almost any considerations about popular/legacy/trendy techs. Our use of Git/GitHub or popular programming languages, for example, is as minimal as we can.

3 Likes
Json in TiddlyWiki by standard
Plugin Idea: Tix – New Tiddler Layout (for TW >= 5.2.1)
#14

I’ve read War and Peace! It’s really good!

2 Likes
#15

The initial aim of TWPUB is to upcycle the EPUB format into a multibook format based on TiddlyWiki, that allows users to write on their books as well as read them, through the most versatile multimedia apps, namely web browsers.
Of course, books written directly in TiddlyWiki would be superior, but they would request a know-how that isn’t common in publishing. By contrast, there are literally millions of EPUBs around, so why not start from here.
@Mark_S remark regarding DRMs is unfortunately valid, but some publishers allow small bookstores to sell books without DRMs : https://www.ebooks.com/en-fr/searchapp/searchresults.net?Filter.FormatType=Epub&Filter.DrmFree=true.

3 Likes
#16

@poc2go I only just recently saw your comment so allow me to add my two cents to this topic.

TiddlyWiki is a powerful platform, and offers a lot of features equivalent to or superior to other more “hip” alternatives like Notion and Roam. The problem as I see it from running experiments for a possible TiddlyWiki online platform is that it’s a question of meeting mainstream problem solution fit in the most convenient and painless way possible.

People want to use tools like TiddlyWiki for many different things. Segmenting these user needs/intents into clear categories with proper SEO practice is I think one key towards driving more traffic to TiddlyWiki. In addition, most folks I’m afraid are not tech savvy. You give them any edition of TiddlyWiki and they see the potential, but they feel overwhelmed by it. The end result is them retreating back to a tool that they are most comfortable with, or in the best case scenario, they restrict their use of TW’s toolset to a workflow that resembles Evernote. So, designing TW editions for mainstream adoption should keep these facts in mind.

However, having said all this, we should also remind ourselves one thing: mass adoption is usually led by a select few group of influencers who act to propagate the tool towards mass adoption via anything from word of mouth to making it a mandatory requirement. We in the community are the influencers so we should continue to play our role as ambassadors for TW and insist on its use wherever possible, and contribute code/feature suggestions to solve real world problems we encounter as we use it. TW is thriving because we’re using it everywhere, sometimes for things that even many of us didn’t think was possible.

So, in summary, to ensure TW user/market share if I may:

  1. Focus on user needs and segment these needs. Stay focused on meeting those needs, but allow for extension.
  2. Design for a broad class of user backgrounds, and remain user-centric
  3. Continue to influence adoption like mad! Be TW’s propagator at work, at home, at a conference, etc.

WRT PDF use specifically, I’d suggest that there are probably many ways we could use TW to enhance the user experience in dealing with PDFs and other published formats like EPUB, but it really depends on what problem we’re trying to solve. This topic deserves its own discussion, but I suggest that, as far as PDFs are concerned, I would rather not use TW just to read PDFs (there are better tools for that), but instead use it as a meta tool for handling curation and researching many pdfs at a time, if that makes sense. That adds value given that other tools that do this aren’t free or open, and aren’t as lightweight as TW. Hope that makes sense. This probably needs to be its own topic for discussion.

2 Likes
#17

I agree. In addition to technical discussion of TW, presentation of end solutions by functional need is still needing adding in public fora.

In my fantasy a search for TiddlyWiki might bring to the fore …

  • Tiddly Anthropologist

  • Tiddly Novelist

  • Tiddly Back-Problem Tracker

You get the idea?

The issue here is not generic tech issues so much as precise differentiation of end purposes. Each app with its own approach to the specific problematics involved.

Just a comment
TT

#18

Indeed. My primary concern however is not getting into a situation where we join all the other major tools for thought platforms in a perpetual race to the bottom (see here).

Differentiating ourselves in a saturated market: here lies the crux of the problem. You can either be like everyone else, or you can try to actually solve excruciating problems plaguing this ecosystem. That’s what we’re all about!

#19

I think the best thing about TWPUB is that it is dynamic and card-based, and can be put together very well, which fits well with the incremental reading proposed by SuperMemo author Piotr Wozniak.

This is something that PDF do not have, and importing PDF into SuperMemo is very cumbersome.

#20

Agree. And that is a great point! How to address this issue? I have three broad comments …

  • TW’s flexibility is so vast you can basically do most anything the net can do in it.

  • That very flex is (maybe) an issue in promoting “apps” (functional specific TW implementations). What do you promote: the “app” or “TW”?

  • Also, in a way, with a neat “app” (e.g. a novel in epub format) in a way TW (maybe correctly?) disappears? What I mean is that with a functional whole for purpose (hopefully?) you don’t need explain TW, merely the behaviour of the “app”.

Regarding the OP by @poc2go, the promo side of TW I would love if we all talked about more sometimes. It would be good to see it used more, even if the end-page-user doesn’t know what it is.

Just a comment
TT