Here we go again, with the superfluous comparisons.
Names make a difference, especially if you 50 competing products and no advertising budget.
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I do agree with @Mark_S that the name “TiddlyWiki” does hold us back.
Originally, I only regretted the name because I thought it was a silly joke. But over the years I’ve had consistent feedback that there is a significantly sized cultural group that finds the name at best patronising and at worst obscene. As @Mark_S says, it doesn’t matter many people we can find who like/tolerate the current name; we can’t ignore the consistency of the feedback that it’s a showstopper for a a significant group of people.
My current, loosely held view is that it would take a disproportionate effort to retrospectively change TiddlyWiki’s name, and we’d lose a significant amount of Google-fu. But, if I were ever to move on to a new version that was not intended to be fully backwards compatible then I would be inclined to adopt a new name.
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To be honest, TiddlyWiki is nowhere near Obsidian. They’re not in the same niche, not appealing to the same users. It’s not fair to compare the two.
I think TiddlyWiki is more like a web-based Emacs, which is generally considered extremely powerful and great, yet few people want to use it. There’s no discussion on Hacker News about Obsidian, Roam or Zettelkasten without someome mentioning the awesomeness of Org-Mode (which is an Emacs “mode”).
Maybe TiddlyWiki belongs in that awesome yet-too-difficult-for-mere-mortals niche?
Personally, I found getting started and trying out TiddlyWiki (with persistence!) was absurdly hard to do. I have not come across any tool that is as hard to get started with! It took me a few hours to try and fail different ways of running TiddlyWiki. It’s a miracle I didn’t give up.
That is what you should be focussing on, letting people download something and start using it in 5 minutes. Not giving people paralysis over the choice between relatively poorly implemented tools for saving text to your disk (I mean, come on!).
TiddlyWiki is hard to operate, and doesn’t stand a chance compared to cloud solutions.
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This is another one of those posts that deserves re-tweeting!
I’m personally glad to see @jeremyruston’s considered opinion which makes great measured sense to me.
TT
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We are getting enough community members who are devs or super users that there is a pressure towards a simpler “onboarding solution” that I think will be met. What that will look like really depends on how the community conversations go, and any incentives that drive development in one direction or another.
For an example, while researching my multiplayer solution I ran across this project with really good “cloud” onboarding flow:
GitBook - turn any collection of *.html or *.md (markdown) files into a git-history-backed asyc-collaborative “collection of virtual documenation/books”. They make it super simple to onboard, assume you already have a bunch of content you need to inject into their system, and allow set-up of teams/permissions easily. Lots of attention.
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The idea of a quick start is excellent. I am currently building a proof of concept “Make tiddlywiki your own” guided workflow that uses any information it can find to keep it as simple as possible.
What would a TiddlyWiki Quick start include?
[Edited] This starts here
I totally agree with @cdaven.
I also share his experience only that it took me weeks and I am still having difficulties so that I took a pause with TW and switched to a simple Markdown editor with the common file structure.
I have a basic understanding and experience with programming (Excel VBA, LaTeX, bit python) while being very motivated to use open-source software (I have tried every text/note editor) but at the end it was too much because it was more about solving problems or finding solutions rather than building a TW. This leads me to:
If the goal is to achieve growth – from what I learned at the university – then there should be, first of all, a precise answer to the question:
Who exactly is the target group? or Who is the targeted user? (or from a business perspective: Who is the customer / customer segment?)
I am sure there is an answer for that (even though I did not read it in this discussion).
From what I see:
A user with my background/experience, as previously described, is only partial in the target group because TW requires routine & day-to-day programming skills to avoid checking the commands (even though when the template function is used) in order to go beyond the functionality of a simple Markdown-file system while this double-side edit interface (left: code; right: display) decrease comfort compared to in-text editing. Therefore, a user like me is struggling with TW even though I really would like to use it on a daily basis because I understand its power, endless application, compatibility, and lovely philosophy. But at the end, it requires solid skills and efforts to unleash this power otherwise it is not better than a simple note app.
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I think tiddlywiki is more beneficial for non programming people like me. I can look at the other people’s creations / plug ins and modify them to suit my needs.
But there is definitely some effort which we have to put in to start using TW atleast to 5% of its actual potential (which is my current state). I regularly look at the TW forums and GitHub to understand what’s going on. Create issues and discussions in the GitHub repo of plug in which I use. And the pandemic gave me enough time to have a basic understanding of TW and test out many plug ins from the dynalist toolmap.
I have tried showing TW in some other forums also.Check this link. Although many people accept that it’s very powerful, they admit that they won’t probably use it because they would like a pre built fully functional solution rather than building their own customised wiki using TW.
Before fully committing on TW, I had tried remnote mostly and logseq/obsidian a few times. Remnote was easy for data collection bcos of presence of Twitter bot and iOS shortcut which could be made using their API which were lacking in TW. But I found workaround for these using tiddlyclip plug in.
When ever I used Logseq and obsidian, I felt like missing TW. But I haven’t explored them fully. So I might be biased. Anyways I have decided, its TW for my note taking.
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I do very much agree!
It is time consuming to start using TW - but so is constantly having to try out new software - and often having to start everything over, when suddenly that software is no more.
I love looking at other peoples creations. I copy a lot and maybe change a little to fit my needs. I find that after some time, when upgrading my TWs - I get get more ideas- and they get better and better.
I spend a lot of time using Tiddlywiki - but that is due to having so many dedicated private TWs each for a different purpose.
I love Tiddlywiki. Just the love is not constant ;-). Frustration is a frequent guest - and easily able to rise to high levels before success. Success - and everything is forgotten - and love is at a very high level. (Compare it to women giving birth - screaming and not wanting to - and soon after birth - wanting to produce a soccer team.)
Trying to tell potential new users - “It is so worth it”, when they are not really able to envision exactly what is possible.
Comparing to other software is natural. Just do not be too literal - there are more ways to skin a cat.
Thanks to all the nice and helpful people here.
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@Birthe I always love your comments, demonstrating the value of diverse perspectives your philosophical perspective and most importantly as a woman. To be a better man I also need to understand the perspective from a good woman, and cultures, and minorities or majorities from elsewhere.
Of course, You are just a person like us all, I am trying not to be sexist, but half if not more of the world are Woman, I appreciate not only hearing others views but really hearing from their perspective. Ok, if names are to go, by there are more Women here now than in the past, but I do hope they speak their mind, because it is good for us all.
Perhaps this forum is kinder to all genders and cultures than most, in most ways they irrelevant here.
Exactly, this is what I want to overcome, and “it isn’t easy”.
I love your Birth metaphor, is this “Nominative determinism/metaphor” Birthe?
and I too live on the “Love and Frustration” seesaw with TiddlyWiki.
Well, isn’t that a kind of programming, that most people wouldn’t or couldn’t do?
I have a different opinion on this. (Tough love coming up!)
If you’re a non-programmer, as you say – and you don’t want to tinker with the system, you just want something that works (with cloud sync) – you should be using Notion.
I don’t think most people can make TiddlyWiki do everything that Notion does out of the box. Also, it takes way too long to get up and running.
Please take this the right way. I want TiddlyWiki to get better and to succeed even more. And that requires understanding where you are and what your strengths and weaknesses are.
Maybe you need a manifesto? I thought of Apple’s famous commercial;
Here’s to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.
Thank you, this is what I/we value.
I agree use Notion. Take the “blue Pill”.
- However there may exist a specific edition of TiddlyWiki now or in the future that may meet this need for “alt-Notion”.
Keep in mind perhaps you came to tiddlywiki for a notion like reason, but doing what notion does is I would guess 5% of what you could do with TiddlyWiki, and what has being done with TiddlyWiki. I can guarantee "Notion can’t do a lot of what TiddlyWiki can do “out of the box or otherwise”.
I think actually TiddlyWiki is an “open source ecosystem and platform” that people choose to adopt as a way towards life long learning, based on popular internet standards. We do not sell this enough, and its not an “easy sell” as it is “as complex to describe as the things it can replace”.
- First I will jealously guard this “Chameleon” nature “with my life”.
- TiddlyWiki is already sustainable with a large group of committed people.
- There is no harm considering “How to stimulate User Growth of TW?” and we have done so many times, but “it is not necessary”.
We have discussed this many times and it is clear to me (and others) that TiddlyWiki’s use depends on the public implementations or editions, made available to the public that people like, and only a small percentage will subsequently look behind the “TiddlyWiki Platform” curtain.
- There still exists some impediments to Make TiddlyWiki your own - discussion
- Once we reduce these impediments the first result will be the adoption of specific solutions and editions, not “TiddlyWiki as a Platform”.
- These will feed back into TiddlyWiki’s strength’s and innovation but only a small percentage are likely to “convert” to “TiddlyWiki Platform Enthusiasts” just as only a small percentage demand the “right to repair their technology”.
Not with standing my above view, there is always the possibility that the value of the “TiddlyWiki platform” becomes mainstream. If so, this will be a revolution and “Democratise” the use of software, something I am passionate about. The vast majority of people I meet, of all ages and backgrounds have a love hate relationship with software. A barrier we need to break to empower them.
Perhaps the best way to;
Is how Microsoft, apple and even google have. Include in the target audience - School Children.
Give a Child some software, and they will use it until they loose interest.
Give a child the ability to make their own,
and you empower them for life.
Similarly any non-programmer.
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Just for my understanding 
Who exactly is in the target audience already?
I thought that a very interesting post! With much sense.
But, to pun on the word “notion”, part of the issue with TW is there are notions (ideas) of how it works that don’t really grasp it’s flexibility.
One thing positively clear in your post, for me, though, is that end-users of TW benefit from dedicated TWs for a purpose. I.e. would be well-served by having more “bespoke editions” that do not require an end user to code anything. Rather they each have documented procedures matched to their purpose.
With TW that could be for infinite numbers of apps.
In my own case I’m interested in … (maybe notice my desires are quite finite and discrete?)
— Image Galleries
— Screenplay Writing
— Social Media Posting
— Pure text complex searches
That is just 4 realisable ends. (There are many others equally doable.)
So what is the issue in TW getting there?
I am guessing it is that there are not so many “developers” of “bespoke apps” yet.
Though I think they may be coming?
Best wishes, TT
What I meant was even people with non programming background can learn to do low grade to medium level programming in TW.
For example, I am a doctor and I haven’t learned any coding prior to using TW. When I strarted using TW, I tried and tested my plug ins. I have test wikis which totally amount to atleast 5 GB size. This experience in TW helped me to even create a theme for remnote while I was using it.
I never mentioned that i don’t want to tinker. Notion was the first one that i tried. But it was it was way to slow to what I could do in TW.
Only thing I miss in TW is integration with other apps. When I was using remnote, I could send tweets to remnote in two clicks. For this i use tiddlyclip currently, but it can be done only from desktop. Also iOS shortcuts and Android share feature doesnt work for TW.
No one in particular. This is just another suggested audience.
Actually I think to the contrary, even the opposite. I expect most wikis are so bespoke and private that we do not see them shared.
One reason I like tiddlywiki is the ease of conversion and import/export, if not integration where needed, but then this is something I have done all my career, so have a whole suite of techniques which tiddlywiki makes easy.
I think there would be value if you start a discussion on your top integration needs and see if someone has done it before. To start, find out which import and export formats, links to content, display formats etc… that are in the “other app”.
Good comment. And likely true. It helps me clarify what I intended to say…
Which was “published wiki apps dedicated to a purpose with integrated docs that don’t need you to be a TW coder”.
Something like that.
You get my drift!
TT
I totally Get your drift 
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