How to stimulate User Growth of TW?

#21

But Mark your statement is also anecdotal unless you have interviewed a statistically representative number of users as part of a well conducted survey - otherwise you are basing your opinions on what you have seen and heard just like Sobjornstad is doing and indeed we all do - just anecdotal opinions not fact.

No-one has presented any “proof” that the name Tiddlywiki is a turn off - only opinions.

I wonder how Goofy “Google” sounded when it first came out - nevermind “Google PLAY” or what about Android Ice Cream Sandwhich.

I suspect that the goofyness lasts as long as the outfit is small enough not to impact or influence very much on our consciousness - when the outfit reaches mega proportions our attitudes towards the name changes because previous associations are wiped out - I mean who on Earth would think of calling a computer an Apple? …would “Banana” have worked just as well or maybe Orange if Banana has too many comedy associations - Rasberry Pie anyone?

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#22

Interestingly I am the opposite, the idea of only one tiddler at a time “Zoom” is unusable to me. But then I always assumed the tools we there to help me, I found them or built them and have no problems navigating;

  • Eg using the history history-sidebar.json (536 Bytes), story tabs plugin, using the menu bar with a “jump” list of open tiddlers.

I think we need to face the fact TiddlyWiki is almost infinite, but new users have to start with the finite.

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#23

Not strictly true.
Observation, even if personal, can be appropriately indicative :-).

But I do agree in the sense there is no definitive objectivist ruling available on the likeability of the “TiddlyWiki” word.

But, also, it has been obvious over several years and in many, many “subjectivist” posts that the word is not neutral. That there are real qualms (& loves) about it.

I know of no other software that has had such repeated discussion of it’s name!

FYI, there may be decent proxy indicators available on usage and shared meaning of the words “Tiddly” & “Tiddler” in the fields of etymology and linguistic usage.

If I get time sometime I’ll look at those.

Just comments, TT

#24

Since it got buried, I’ll just repeat.

Joplin has had nearly 5 million downloads (counting all platforms) in only 7 years. It has had nearly 30k stars on github.

So maybe understanding what Joplin is doing right will give a clue to what TW is doing not-so-right.

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#25

More than the name, IMO it’s the ui, the simplicity/clarity of the showcase on their website, the fact that it is available on google play and IOS as an official app, that it is in a traditional software format rather than a html file requiring special tools for saving (especially for syncing).

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#26

Ciao @telumire, I don’t think that entirely obviates the points about the “TiddlyWiki” name @Mark_S made though.

But your point about Joplin is right, I think, it is well pitched to a discernible userbase and the UI is very simple.

Footnote, FYI: THB, I think now, and have for a couple of years, that TW is so flexible; that you can do so much with it, it has kinda stymied market fits???

Joplin is far more limited in its published scope but seems more immediately accessible. In that sense it has, I think, far clearer marketing aims than TW.

Just thoughts. I don’t really know. Just guesses.
TT

#27

I agree that providing one recommended method of saving would greatly reduce the friction for new users.

Would it be possible for TiddlyWiki to adopt the new filesystem API that Logseq uses?

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#28

A working version of it is here: slaymaker1907's TiddlyWiki Plugins — a non-linear personal web notebook

You can see it puts a few menus in the user’s face. It is also only for Chrome.

For the desktop, the best way hands down is Timimi. But does it make sense to have a 3rd party project be the recommended method of saving?

So that leaves TiddlyDesktop for the desktop environment. But for the user it isn’t the most polished approach, and you lose the ability to quickly flick between browser tabs.

Each saving solution has its problems.

So whenever this discussion comes up, we go around in the same circles. The obvious solution is to make Timimi a part of the official distribution. But I don’t see that happening.

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#29

I acknowledged the perceived issue on TW’s name but I do not agree with it, I think a quirky name is a very good thing to have because it draw attention and is easy to remember.

TiddlyWiki reach is international : it’s in english, it contains the word “wiki”, which is universal thanks to wikipedia. Tiddly means extremely small - a small wiki, seems good to me.

My first language is french however, so that may be the reason why I fail to see how ridiculous the name is - and that is the reason why I avoided to talk about that.

I dont think that the comparison to Joplin is fair either, because of it’s availability on many platform, form factor, design, etc. These are Joplin’s strong points, and what’s lacking to tiddlywiki - not the name but the features & marketing efforts.

@Mark_S Timimi is what I use too and I agree, it would be great if it was made part of the official distribution ! This discussion is about how to stimulate user growth, and I think that having an official, effective and simple saving solution would be a very good first step.

Another great thing would be to make the development fund link more accessible, it’s not on the github page nor the front page of the official website. I’d bet many new users dont know it even exist : TiddlyWikiDotOrg - Open Collective

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#30

It’s not quirky. Quirky is fine. It’s a childish turnoff to some 100 to 300 million people who grew up hearing “TiddlyWinky” as a pejorative term used to describe activities that are a waste of time. It’s not something you would want to bring up in a board meeting.

One of the things Joplin does is have statistics. We don’t seem to have any statistics on downloads or activity. There is immense uptake of TiddlyWiki in certain places, but glaring omissions in others. But I’m basing this on a memory of a chart that we used to have but I guess was eliminated after the removal of Google Analytics.

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Let's brainstorm a name for the next version of TiddlyWiki
Let's brainstorm a name for the next version of TiddlyWiki
#31

Ansewr ? No !

Actually @Mark_S I think you are on to something here. Not only could Timimi or a version of it be preeminent but we could bend over backwards to point to and even contain the necessary components within a tiddlywiki distribution available with a click.

In fact a few other empty + saver setups could be made available to facilitate download and saving. I may have a play with a few today.

For people of a certain age, perhaps somewhat younger as well, Joplin is memorable because of Janice.

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#32

With respect… while you clearly have a very strong opinion about the “TiddlyWiki” name, I think you are doing your argument a huge disservice by offering up “facts” that have no demonstrable basis.

  1. “100 to 300 million” is an unprovable number that comes across as “… let me pick a number that sounds really huge, because I want to be persuasive, even though I have no idea what the actual number is.”

  2. I searched (using Google) for the term “TiddlyWinky”. It found NO matches. Not as a slang term… not as a perjorative… not ANYTHING at all.

I did find numerous matches for “TiddlyWinks”, including links to:

There is a minor connotation of “trivial” mentioned here: https://grammarist.com

“…often used as a negative comparison to an item or situation to stress the importance or difficulty of that item or situation in contrast to the triviality of tiddlywinks.”

and the Urban Dictionary (which is hardly a definitive source of meaning) notes:

“…used today to disparagingly call something trivial…”

Even so… the primary problem with “user growth of TW” has very little to do with it’s NAME. There are many other words (especially on-line) that started out with “trivial” meanings, such as “Google”, “Twitter”, “Yahoo”, etc… and let us not forget the origin of “Wikipedia”… a fanciful portmanteau of the Hawaiian word “wiki”, meaning “quick”, and “pedia” (from the word “encyclopedia”).

-e

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#33

Actually, I developed tiddly-gittly/TidGi-Desktop with multiple-wiki switching support, and is polished as a clean desktop app. Mainly for solving the saving problem for new users.

When telling people about tiddlywiki, I directly introduce the TidGi, and it seems to make it easier to convince users to switch from Notion to Tiddlywiki. And some of user will switch to other saving mechanism when they get fremillar to how tw works, TidGi won’t lock their data, because it is still build on TW.

But the pure empty edition will really hold some new user’s step, it will need too much to download and setup, before they write down a first note. So I never recommend download an empty edition.

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#34

@linonetwo I am really excided about your work here and this in particular;

Like you I think empty.html should be regulated to an edition you can get if needed and the default download should be saving enabled version, however we do it. Even if it includes guidance to install a saver.

  • Mario has a downloads folder solution for autosave
  • I have a local storage plus changes backup method
  • You seem to be getting there with TidGi

However I am trying too keep up with your contributions to the community and struggling a little, both because of your advanced skills, and my not so advanced skills and the appearance of Chinese in many of your solutions. I understand and I am very grateful you speak/read both languages and are really promoting this into the Chinese language users (That is fantastic) but I have to be honest and say as a result I find it hard to understand all of your great work.

I just tried tidGi for windows and unfortunately once changing languages need to contyend with this;

Snag_127dfec5

then
Snag_127ebd91

and how do I

  1. Check the ~TiddlyWiki command line for a message confirming the tiddler has been saved

What you are doing seems so amazing, but I just cant make use of it yet.

#35

None of these are embarrassing to say in a meeting. Yahoo and Google were both introduced at a time where there were few competitors. There are at least 2 dozen competitors to TW now. Plus they advertised. If you can advertise, you can overcome any name.

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#36

So to sum up what I am reading:

  1. If we change the name to something less goofy, like totallywiki,
  2. package empty.html with Timimi or some similar easy to use saving method,
  3. make the onboarding cleaner and with a video
  4. Advertise

We will be awash with new users. Can we get this done by the end of the month and move on? :slight_smile:

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"Nah... not for me" - Why?
#37

If the Admins agree to act as judges (they are already having to decide how to allocate the $ that are donated), I could put up a bounty that pays if the end of month target is met, $1,000 to the top contributor, $500 to the second and $250 to the third.

Thoughts?

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#38

Like Tony, I can’t really understand what I’m seeing. Is TidGi another version of Tiddlydesktop? The biggest problem with TD is that the user experience outside a browser simply isn’t as rich, universal, or versatile as when used inside a browser.

Edit. Ok. Have had time to slow down and look a bit.

It seems to be a TiddlyDesktop style tool that uses node.js (separate tiddlers) and saves directly to Github. I think anything with Github is going to be too advanced for getting people onboard. I can see why developers might like it – if I understand correctly, developers could write widgets that use Electron components.

Since you’re writing in Electron, let me ask you. Do you think it would be possible to have an Android version of TD (or TidGi) ?

#39

Ciao @Mark_S & @EricShulman

I noticed your exchanges on the naming issue.

IF I get time I will research the linguistic use of “tiddly” & “tiddler” & post it to our Café.

It is not so simple to get clear answers as one needs consider also the “reception environment” (i.e. who and where folk considering TW are coming from?)

Briefly, my current sense is that in English speaking countries the words are multi-valent, often in a negative way. Though there are, I think, variations in use between English speaking countries.

For instance, in the United Kingdom, “Tiddly” can definitely be associated with being “slightly drunk”. And “Tiddler” is used both descriptively for something “very small / tiny” and in derogatory usage as a diminutive.

Just a comment
TT

#40

I am trying too keep up with your contributions to the community and struggling a little, both because of your advanced skills, and my not so advanced skills and the appearance of Chinese in many of your solutions

Surely I always want to make my plugins i18n, but I haven’t found a clear guide to do i18n, as discussed in Proposal : integrate a translation macro into the core · Issue #4179 · Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5 · GitHub

Some of your confusion about that dialog, and the expanded sidebar, are common I think. (first dialog is because nodejs wiki creates a net connection, second is just sidebar on the top, you just need to widen the window.)
I’m planning to have a help workspace shown when app is open, like how Obsidian does it:

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I think I can answer many FAQs in it and help new TidGi user get around any confusion, and learn how to use more resources of tiddlywiki.

This is what I learnt from Obsidian, and Joplin app may have something I can learn from too. By getting good parts from them, I think we have a chance to catch them up.

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