RFI: the "MyGSD Wiki" theme

[pmario]

@saqimtiaz

From my perspective, for a well designed and maintainable edition for the given purpose this is accurate. If anything I expect the up front work would have the potential of exceeding 100 hours.

Probably … by far

---- may be OT, but I think it is a good example ----

I didn’t really track the time, that I did invest in the new PaletteManager Edition / Plugin. But I’m sure in sum I’m close to 100 hours already. And the polishing needed to make it ready for the core there is no end in sight. For the core all the UI text elements need to be translatable. – To know what needs translation, the project has to be “feature complete”. – My goal was to “not introduce new translatable text elements.”

---

The scope of The Ultimate GTD App “that scales” as described in by David Allen in the 2019 GTD summit has a much lager scope.

@saqimtiaz

While it might seem like most of this already exists in the wild, putting those pieces together does not necessarily lead to a well designed, cohesive and maintainable end product.

That’s right. Because if that would be enough, the existing editions would already have “taken over the market”. … But they didn’t.

As I wrote at:

https://talk.tiddlywiki.org/t/any-new-gtd-plug-ins-available-other-than-gsd5-cardo-and-projectify/4920/57?u=pmario

The underlaying structure is key. For that structure one needs to understand GTD in detail. So I did study the book in more detail.

@saqimtiaz

Furthermore, there would probably be a need for the developer to familiarize themselves with the Getting Things Done book, unless we luck out and find someone already very familiar with it.

As I wrote. I did study the book in more detail. My focus was from an “app developer” having the “user in mind”. Over the last weekend I did use Saq’s Streams-edition to outline 224 “elements of interest”, for an app, covered in Part 1 of the book.

Part 1 is an overview of the whole GTD concept and “the other parts” in the book are detailed descriptions about the elements defined in part 1.

The first heading in Part 2 is: Getting Started: Setting Up the Time, Space, and Tools

… What a coincidence. If we start an empty version of our trusted tool, we are greeted with GettingStarted.

… just some thoughts

[ludwa6]

@simon

Are any of the existing GTD/GSD TiddlyWiki, or non-TiddlyWiki systems any good as a starting point for the design?

In my earlier response, i neglected to mention one other important development:

This thread about GTD plugins, which i’m afraid i sorta hijacked (sorry @arunnbabu81 !) featured this link to a GSD5 variant that i consider quite relevant.

I know it’s just a demo of some tooling i don’t yet understand well enough to use (if indeed this is the intention- to engage interested non-technical users? -bit of in-context documentation could really help), but i’ll be watching this project w/ interest, and would love to engage in a dedicated conversation about it, if there be any other interested parties. What do you say, @arunnbabu81 ?

[pmario]

@simon

Are any of the existing GTD/GSD TiddlyWiki, or non-TiddlyWiki systems any good as a starting point for the design?

I think design elements can be used, but the UI implementation itself should build upon the new cascade mechanism that is part of the TW UI now.

It should make the UI more maintainable, theme independent and more flexible.

The gsd-plugins should all be independent from themes … if possible.

[ludwa6]

@pmario

“I think design elements can be used, but the UI implementation itself should build upon the new cascade mechanism that is part of the TW UI now.” -Can we have a link here to documentation of that tooling? /w

“It should make the UI more maintainable, theme independent and more flexible.” -Especially if that means lower TCO (in terms of maintenance end): great! /w

“The gsd-plugins should all be independent from themes … if possible.”

From the non-technical user perspective, i’d like to know what this means. Ultimately, the aim should be (on the dev RoadMap, if not in initial release(s)) an essentially feature-complete package of software that let’s us know when there’s an update available with 1-click install to keep all code up to date. This has come to be the expectation of any software user for which users need to pay- and for polished FOSS packages as well- so i would ask: how can this be most easily implemented in a TW5 product?

[saqimtiaz]

@ludwa6

Ultimately, the aim should be (on the dev RoadMap, if not in initial release(s)) an essentially feature-complete package of software that let’s us know when there’s an update available with 1-click install to keep all code up to date. This has come to be the expectation of any software user for which users need to pay- and for polished FOSS packages as well- so i would ask: how can this be most easily implemented in a TW5 product?

Absolutely. From my perspective, the two key concerns to address are:

1. Constraints. If you want something well polished and consistent then a part of that is introducing constraints in terms of what is and is not possible in terms of customization and integration of other plugins.
2. Sufficient funding. The more polish you want, the higher the associated development and maintenance costs.

[pmario]

@ludwa6

From the non-technical user perspective, …

@pmario

“I think design elements can be used, but the UI implementation itself should build upon the new cascade mechanism that is part of the TW UI now.”

-Can we have a link here to documentation of that tooling? /w

Sorry for the poor wording. … It’s been “dev-talk”.

I meant that the new edition should be based on the latest technology TiddlyWiki has to offer. Existing implementations started to be used years ago and had to use what was possible at that time.

[ludwa6]

All great to hear, Mario; your contributions here and in that mother-thread provide invaluable grist for the mill.

@pmario

As I wrote. I did study the book in more detail. My focus was from an “app developer” having the “user in mind”. Over the last weekend I did use Saq’s Streams-edition to outline 224 “elements of interest”, for an app, covered in Part 1 of the book.

Mmm… Can’t wait to learn what emerges from that brainstorm, in due course.

@pmario

The scope of The Ultimate GTD App “that scales” as described in by David Allen in the 2019 GTD summit has a much lager scope.

I just have to point out (in case anyone failed to pick up on the irony) that master Allen was being semi-facetious in that presentation.

Ultimately: there is no “ultimate” GTD app, and never will be. “Horses for courses,” as Saq says… And i think you’re right-on in your recommendation that this app needs to present a drop-dead simple interface for Getting Started with just the first step (i.e. CAPTURE everything in a mind-sweep) and maybe the 2nd (i.e. PROCESS each item with minimal friction into one of a handful of lists).

[saqimtiaz]

@ludwa6

Ultimately, the aim should be (on the dev RoadMap, if not in initial release(s)) an essentially feature-complete package of software that let’s us know when there’s an update available with 1-click install to keep all code up to date.

Just to provide further context, I maintain an edition for a small group of close friends who have no idea what TiddlyWiki is. They have now been using it happily on a regular basis for almost two years during which I have pushed out updates maybe 7-8 times, and they have been able to update by clicking a single button. The updates mechanism is something I implemented from scratch and would need a lot more forethought and redesign if one wanted to use it for a larger audience. The other key part of what has made this successful is that they interact with a fully customised TiddlyWiki with a bespoke interface, and have no knowledge or expectation that they can tweak it. They use it as is and these constraints remove a lot of potential pitfalls.

[TiddlyTweeter]

@saqimtiaz

Just to provide further context, I maintain an edition for a small group of close friends who have no idea what TiddlyWiki is. They have now been using it happily on a regular basis for almost two years during which I have pushed out updates maybe 7-8 times, and they have been able to update by clicking a single button. The updates mechanism is something I implemented from scratch and would need a lot more forethought and redesign if one wanted to use it for a larger audience. The other key part of what has made this successful is that they interact with a fully customised TiddlyWiki with a bespoke interface, and have no knowledge or expectation that they can tweak it. They use it as is and these constraints remove a lot of potential pitfalls.

This is well worth a RETWEET if we could do it here.

Fantastic to know how you leverage TW so users never-ever need to be concerned with how it works. And also you update them seamlessly.

THIS kind of story is a USE CASE that needs telling again & again. ???

TT, x

[pmario]

I did create a new thread: Getting Stuff Done -- Basic Elements -- implemented using TiddlyWiki, that can follow the development process.

You try to get the funding up to speed. … I try to get it

[ludwa6]

@pmario

I did create a new thread: Getting Stuff Done – Basic Elements – implemented using TiddlyWiki , that can follow the development process.

Whups -looks like i missed that one (easy to do, in this firehose that is talk.tiddlywiki!)

@pmario

You try to get the funding up to speed. … I try to get it

I am no great shakes at fundraising… But i’ll do my best. “Next Action” (or rather, a multi-step PROJECT in GTD-speak) seems to me it should be an OpenCollective launch. Notwitstanding the good Q&A we’ve had in that top-level thread, i’m not yet clear what my Next Action should be to advance that cause.

Based on the lively show of interest among the start-studded cast of contributors here thus far, i believe this RFI has fulfilled its purpose of engaging sufficient interest already. Is that fair to say? If so, then how should this go up on TW’s OC board, to see if it will attract some financial backers?

[saqimtiaz]

If you are willing to help administer the project, then I think sensible next steps would be:

• writing up the scope and clearly defined features of the project
  • either as a phased multi step project or even just the first step initially
• setting a fund raising goal appropriate to the above
• pinging Boris and Jeremy with a request to run this as an Open Collective project.

@ludwa6

Based on the lively show of interest among the start-studded cast of contributors here thus far, i believe this RFI has fulfilled its purpose of engaging sufficient interest already.

Just to be clear, my interest lies more so with facilitating discussions around how to explore a community funded development model rather than with the proposed edition.

[arunnbabu81]

@ludwa6

As you might be already knowing, the above linked GSD based demo wiki consists of a few cosmetic changes I added in addition to the GSD5 core for easy usage. I haven’t touched any GSD5 core tiddlers. Since I don’t know to do large scale TW programming, I am unable to modify it beyond these cosmetic tweaks. I have reported some issues which I encountered in the GitLab to the plug in creator, but he hasn’t responded yet.

Here is another GSD5 wiki which I have been tweaking - https://muuri-test.tiddlyhost.com/

If you want to read about the GSD5 plug in, this docs plug in of GSD5 contains everything - GSD5 — a getting-stuff-done tool

Also try this tiddler - GSD5 — a getting-stuff-done tool

[ludwa6]

@saqimtiaz

“If you are willing to help administer the project…” -to the best of my ability, i’m there! /w
"…then I think sensible next steps would be:

• writing up the scope and clearly defined features of the project
  • either as a phased multi step project or even just the first step initially
• setting a fund raising goal appropriate to the above
• pinging Boris and Jeremy with a request to run this as an Open Collective project."

3 essential steps, surely, which can certainly start now & run in parallel, but i guess #2 (fundraising goal) can only finish after #1 is finished. I’ll certainly keep the Scope-Setting & Feature-Focusing conversation moving along, but meanwhile…

@saqimtiaz

Just to be clear, my interest lies more so with facilitating discussions around how to explore a community funded development model rather than with the proposed edition.

Clear! So, in the interest of exploring that “community funded development model” @saqimtiaz, perhaps you can lead the conversation with Jeremy & Boris about alignment w/ TW’s OpenCollective, as you’ve been down that road already?

[ludwa6]

@arunnbabu81

If you want to read about the GSD5 plug in, this docs plug in of GSD5 contains everything - GSD5 — a getting-stuff-done tool

Also try this tiddler - GSD5 — a getting-stuff-done tool

Ahh… Some good docs are included, after all: nice! I’m on it; thanks for the pointer, @arunnbabu81

[saqimtiaz]

@ludwa6

Clear! So, in the interest of exploring that “community funded development model” @saqimtiaz, perhaps you can lead the conversation with Jeremy & Boris about alignment w/ TW’s OpenCollective, as you’ve been down that road already?

I have actually only been on the other end of this before, where the project was proposed and I volunteered to do the work. This does not have to be something elaborate, once you have #1 finished it is just a case of requesting here in the forum that the project be added to Open Collective, and asking for guidance if something more is needed.

[boris]

@ludwa6

with Jeremy & Boris about alignment w/ TW’s OpenCollective, as you’ve been down that road already?

Looking at this thread, my view right now is that scope is too broad and there is limited to no commitment to funding in this thread.

As is often the case, the enthusiastic response is that there are some plugins and WikiText to do this … without having an edition that someone can use today (nevermind maintenance).

I’d hate to see something this size (5K up front, 500 ongoing for argument sake) languish with minimal funding.

(Same with my highly dev centric GH Actions RFI post. Saq understands the potential there but it is pretty abstract for others. My next step is going to be to promote more widely and probably to fund the simple script myself)

So how do we work on building support? What is the template of action plan we can use to help get people to succeed?

@ludwa6 do you want to host a live call with interested people to hash out funding and promo and features? I’d also highly recommend finding at least one other person to recruit to work with you who is interested in this as a very actionable next step.

You mentioned GitHub so setting up a repo and using that for issues and action might be another next step. I don’t mean code - but the non technical bits. You can of course use the forum here to run organizing threads too. We could set up a dedicated category in #projects if you’re going to move forward with this.

And maybe we’ve discovered a rough set of steps:

RFI → Team Building → Working Group → OpenCollective Launch → Maintenance & Feature releases

With updates and promotion along the way.

Thoughts?

[ludwa6]

@boris

…maybe we’ve discovered a rough set of steps:

RFI → Team Building → Working Group → OpenCollective Launch → Maintenance & Feature releases

With updates and promotion along the way.

Thoughts?

I think that makes good sense as a logical sequence of steps. And as to Next Action…

@boris

@ludwa6 do you want to host a live call with interested people to hash out funding and promo and features? I’d also highly recommend finding at least one other person to recruit to work with you who is interested in this as a very actionable next step.

At least one other person, for sure -and more, before we can begin to talk about funding, promo, etc. What’s most needed at this point is an experienced TW dev who is also up-to-speed on GTD, and motivated to get a compelling GTD-on-TW product out into the wider world. Does that sound like anyone you know, @pmario ?

As for the market of serious GTD’ers, @Springer has self-identified as one- @arunnbabu81 too, it sounds like- and i’m curious to know what you-all think of that “Next Actions” MVP described by Mario ?

[ludwa6]

Given all the good work that’s gone into this prior art, i took an hour this am to give it a try. To summarise in brief my quick findings re the following:

1. GSD5.tiddyhost.com : Top marks for a good clean landing page; nice documentation, albeit simple (hi-level GTD concepts, but nothing about use of this particular app); easy of download -either drag&drop plugin (for TW5 users), or “an entire TW5/GSD5 environment.” I chose the latter, to come at this w/ fresh eyes, whereupon i found

2. Clean install: Was clean, indeed, but perfectly inscrutable to me. A simple dashboard, listing “Next Action”, “Waiting Action”, “Future Action”, and “Active Projects” -all blank for a new user, obviously. No tooltips on the several novel icons in toolbar; missing both the “Help” panel and the documentation tiddlers available in the online version -so i went there to drag&drop in the documentation plugin and those “Help” tiddlers i found via advanced search under the System tab, but still… Clicking on those novel icons in the toolbar to finally enter a new Project, a new Action (flailing in the dark, since modal windows were generic and gave no clue what i was entering), i quickly made a mess, as my first action created via modal appeared w/ the same title in triplicate. Sorry, but this UI will require more time than i have right now to comprehend. Yet one more thing i had to try:

3. Muuri StoryView: Nice exposition of several different Dashboard layouts, each of which exposes all essential features in a different way. I like where this is going, @arunnbabu81, especially the “Table Dashboard for GSD,” which works best on a horizontal monitor. Notwithstanding the nice layout of controls & monitors tho, the app is still unusable by me in present form, owing to the deeper problems mentioned above.

Would be great to have some user-friendly documentation of these controls, or just a short video demo of someone actually using this software to Get Stuff Done!

[arunnbabu81]

@ludwa6

Clicking on those novel icons in the toolbar to finally enter a new Project, a new Action (flailing in the dark, since modal windows were generic and gave no clue what i was entering), i quickly made a mess, as my first action created via modal appeared w/ the same title in triplicate. Sorry, but this UI will require more time than i have right now to comprehend. Yet one more thing i had to try:

@ludwa6 https://gsd5.tiddlyhost.com/ have a sidebar tab named Collect - I think this can help you. I haven’t incorporated those into my test wiki yet. May be that’s why you are having difficulty in entering the data. The modal that pops up on clicking the new action or new project buttons are using the browser in built mechanism i guess (not TW based modals). You just have to enter the title of the action or project in it. There is not much to get confused there. The newly created action or project tiddler will open in the story river automatically.

@ludwa6

Nice exposition of several different Dashboard layouts, each of which exposes all essential features in a different way. I like where this is going, @arunnbabu81, especially the “Table Dashboard for GSD,” which works best on a horizontal monitor.

I was just trying various layouts and UIs available in tiddlywiki. Those large table layouts are for use in large screens only (I have connected my laptop to a large secondary display). I haven’t decided which layout to use finally. I have to use two seperate layouts mostly - one for use in desktop and one in mobile - still working on it though. I will incorporate the Collect sidebar tab buttons also into the tables -I had forgotten about those buttons. In the murri test wiki, you can see the sidebar if you hover over the right top edge of the screen (it’s hidden by default) - it’s taken from whitespace theme by JD (another great TW content creator who has been missing in action these days).