Thank you @anon5541130
Please go ahead and share your first implementation. I vote and like your first mockup.
1 Like
I think, there is no problem if the HelloThere launches other tabs, that contain specialised editions.
With the new menu-bar it would also be possible that all of them will link back to the main page, if the menu-bar is somewhat consistent so users can see the connection
2 Likes
Thatās kind of what we have with the āSitesā menu in the menu bar thatās on all the tiddlywiki.{org|com} sites. The downside is that people can end up with a profusion of open tabs after theyāve been browsing around for a while.
1 Like
And I think youāre wrong. There are many products that can do many things, and that is why people pick them instead of others. You shouldnāt pretend to be less competent.
The features of GNU Emacs include ā¦
- A wide range of functionality beyond text editing, including a project planner, mail and news reader, debugger interface, calendar, IRC client, and more.
Nice to get a reply. Tx.
You are right concerning āwide functionā. I actually agree on that.
What I intended was to emphasise in addition ā¦ the value of advancing SPECIFIC APPS too, separately.
For instance IF there were a āSceenWriting Appā in TW it should never be necessary to present the whole of tiddlywiki.com to get it (or understand it).
It would merely need docs that screenwriters need to know to use it.
No more.
The point Iām trying to get at is the ātoo-muchnessā of tiddlywiki.com when end use cases have limited aims.
But Iām open to more discussion on this! 
Best, TT
I think weāre getting to the nub of the matter. Thereās a fundamental tension. TiddlyWiki is useful because it is flexible and doesnāt fit the usual orthodoxy of web applications. Meanwhile, we get frustrated that more people donāt discover TiddlyWiki because it seems too complicated and unorthodox.
I donāt know what the solution is, but over the years many times people have suggested that we should hide the complexity, and hence flexibility, of the system.
That way of thinking doesnāt appeal to me because it always ends up turning TiddlyWiki into something else, a lowest common denominator clone that doesnāt have the power to make peopleās hearts sing.
I suspect that we should lean into the problem: make a virtue of the fact that TiddlyWiki is super-flexible, be unapologetic about the fact that it needs an intellectual investment to make the most of it.
Weāre making software for thoughtful people who want to be more effective, and accordingly we should treat our customers as though they are smart enough to understand what weāre trying to do.
4 Likes
(This feels like a āparallel discussionā to the design discussion, maybe it should be split into another thread?)
I agree with this completely.
To me, a high learning curve is perfectly acceptable when Iām pretty sure that I can get much value out of it over a long period of time.
To other people, a high learning curve can be a showstopper no matter the ROI. They just want something to replace a simple notebook or word processor, and even Obsidian or Notion is maybe too complicated.
From the above, I draw the following conclusionsā¦
- We should differentiate TiddlyWiki from e.g. Obsidian and Notion, to attract people who want something more powerful and flexible. This will discourage people outside our audience, which is fine. (This goes on the landing page.)
- We should evangelise TiddlyWiki on e.g. Youtube and tw-com, to show off different use cases, to draw people in. (This is maybe what @TiddlyTweeter is talking about.)
As discussed before, I also believe we should introduce new users to TiddlyWiki in a more gentle way (primarily how to save changes).
I agree with this completely. It is enough to create the landing page with change the UI the TiddlyWiki. it also could do in a unique tiddler, it would be something the demo which was made by @Odin some time ago.
The Landing Page ā https://landingpage-example.tiddlyhost.com
The tiddler(s)-> TiddlyWiki landingpage ā An example of using the layout switcher as a landing page
I donāt know if it is better remake HelloThere or create other tiddler for the Landing Page. I have doubts about what content would have in the changing of layout.
The first mockup by @anon5541130 looks amazing.
2 Likes
Iām a frontend developer, Iām not a designā¦ the concept I showed here is from other designersā¦ Iām going to add these existing designs on tiddlywiki as themes
Just a little footnote.
TW Transclusion is radical already.
Mr. Xanadu, Ted Nelson, would likely approve what we do already? Easily.
A friendly comment on your interesting post,
TT.
1 Like
[quote=āanon5541130, post:31, topic:4120ā]
sub-concept
concept blocks - reference here:
Search results for 'blocks protocol' - Talk TW ,
Block protocol - a great fit for TiddlyWiki?
Jermolene on Steroids (Ubertransclude)
1 Like
I agree that for e.g. the Site Builder persona, the flexible, fungible nature of TW-as-toolkit is itself the attraction.
This has been āsolvedā in other software systems by the use of what in TW would be called Editions.
And anyone in this thread could make an edition and make a landing page for it and promote it
1 Like
I feel like rather hiding the complexity of TW, showing it in steps or levels would be a good way to ease users into learning more and being more capable at making TW their own. Rather than simplifying, we should compartmentalize into easy, digestible chunks.
We have all the necessary tools at our disposal already, itās moreso a matter of presenting them in a moreā¦ approachable manner?
I play a good deal of videogames in my free time, and one of the things I notice when browsing indie and smaller titles, is that a tutorial is one of the most effective ways of showing the capabilities and mechanics of the game (on in this case, software), and I feel like TiddlyWiki can benefit from a similar approach as say, an open world based game?
With no set objectives or guidance to do what it is the user wants to do, they can feel overwhelmed or lost.
If we had a method of creating simple tutorials for the mechanisms of tiddlywiki to go along with the documentation already present, and a more dynamic layout to cater to the desires of the community (like sidebar on the left or right or an official mobile theme), it could, at least in theory, improve approachability to new users, especially if they donāt know about plugins or how to install them.
Like others have stated, tiddlywiki can do near everything, but this has caused choice paralysis and even some confusion as far as where to start. Iāve had that happen with friends Iāve tried introducing to the program in the past, unfortunately.
As far as redesigning the landing page, having preset guides of specific common use-cases would help. I know personally as a writer by hobby, showing TiddlyWiki as an alternative to sites like worldanvil for organizing my worldbuilding was a Big reason to tinker with it, but some people arenāt tinkerers by nature, so giving them something already designed by a fellow user with similar uses, would be good, I think.
Iām sure this is achieved already by user made editions, but having officially made ones would iron out any issues, and having proper documentation for each would also help greatly when that user decides they want to add to it.
Of course, we would still need to basic empty tiddlywiki too, for those who want to start from scratch. Itās like in games like dark souls where you pick a class, there is a class that has nothing, a blank slate- usually for veteran players who want the most flexibility.
3 Likes
@Charlie_Veniot has presented a mock mock up on Google groups. Just to keep it in the conversation. TiddlyWiki Portal Project
1 Like
I just remembered @jeremyruston 's https://federatial.com/ which is generated with a TW
It would be great to have this in a working TW- that would be a great landingpage
2 Likes
May be an updated TW5 version of Cecily story view for the landing page
1 Like