Onboarding for newcomers who are non-developers is very difficult

#1

Onboarding for newcomers who are non-developers is very difficult.

I have actually “found” TW 3 times before I decided to use it.

The first time, not knowing anything about HTML, when I downloaded the empty version I thought it was a scam of some sorts…

After a few months I’ve “found” it again and dwelved into the documentation more deeply. I saw the connections between how TW works and how complex systems work in systems theory, but when I started learning it was just too much and I gave it up in a few weeks.

It was only after I have gone through all other alternatives that I decided to come back… I just couldn’t accept not being able to represent my thoughts correctly. Thankfully, this is when GrokTW came out and that made the onboarding process significantly easier.

I’ve actually hoped that a “New core” was being planned because this would have allowed me to share some of my thoughts as a newcomer and perhaps collectively address these challanges that I think many other non-developers have encountered

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Introducing the Open Collective Community Project Working Group
Is TiddlyTalk inviting for new (new-ish) users? I don't find
Presenting: Annotations
What would a "TiddlyWiki World" website look like?
#2

Great feedback thanks @PS12, I’d welcome a new thread with your thoughts.

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#3

Okay. Please allow me a few days to gather my thoughts.

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#4

@PS12 I’ve moved this into it’s own discussion thread already – thank you, whenever you have time would be wonderful to get feedback.

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#5

We have long gained value from the new user experience, though I am not sure that any “new core” is needed. New users can;

  • Help us who know “better” what the issues are for those who do not
  • May introduced ideas that never crossed out mind and more…
  • Give the community a chance to clear up misunderstandings and show “how to”

One one hand, it is also true, until a new user understands tiddlywiki they often see limitations where there are none. One particular case is people with strong HTML, CSS or Javascript skills, new or even experienced users prove the old saying “A man with a hammer, sees everything as a nail” and the go about solving problems with their tool of choice, missing the fact it has already being solved. I fee this sometimes adds unneeded complexity to the community.

On the other hand experienced users such as myself, see problems that cant be solved or gaps and weaknesses however find bridging this “super user” knowledge and couching it in terms a core or Javascript developer would understand.

As a community the more solutions that are possible “out of the box”, or a well documented plugin the better, otherwise you will need javascript (or advanced HTML/CSS) thus excluding a larger audience, and generating bespoke non reusable solutions.

I have pointed out a number of time that as a result of these observations I chose early in the piece (more than 10 years ago) that I would focus on Super User skills so I could bridge the gap between user/designers and Developers.

@PS12 if you can explain what made you feel it may be a scam I would like to know.

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#6

Usually when you download a software you go through an installation proccess - in this case, there was none, just a single file.

When I opened it, it opened my browser which made me suspicious it’s connecting to the internet.

When I took some notes I tried to save it but a large red error message came up.

These were all of course due to my lack of understanding at the time… I don’t think this happens to many people.

The difficulties I am thinking of now are more along the lines of these discussions:

https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/ZVHqfQWr2uM/m/7f3hpBU5CQAJ

https://groups.google.com/g/tiddlywiki/c/MKVwkEmCimQ/m/AEj6J534AQAJ

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#7

Interesting thoughts @PS12 , thank you. It might make sense to have some information about the nature of what you are downloading adjacent to the “Download Empty” button on tiddlywiki.com, i.e. single HTML file etc.

Oddly enough, I personally find that the experience of getting started with TiddlyWiki is rather difficult for those with a developer skills background, partly due to the nature of the beast and partly due to the way they are received by the community - to everyone’s detriment sadly. I’ll try to write up my thoughts on that in a separate post when I get the opportunity.

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Suggestion to improve official filter documentation
#8

Thanks for you feedback!

That makes me curious. … That shouldn’t have happened. …

  • Can you still reproduce this behaviour?

That would be really interesting. …

  • Which OS do you use?
  • Which browser
  • Which TW version
#9

This happened more than a year ago… I don’t remember exactly. It was probably Windows 7, Google Chrome, newest TW version at that time.

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#10

Yeah, it would be good if TW had more of what I think of as a “portal” website, something a bit like “OpenText Gupta Team Developer SQLWindows Wiki”, but a little friendlier in a non-techie sense.

A place with “pre-canned” TW solutions that people could use as starting points if the blank canvas that is au-natural TW seems a little overwhelming/bewildering at first.

A place with showcase TiddlyWikis.

A place with sample code to try and study.

A place with short training videos.

A place with subpages about ongoing various projects, maybe blogs related to those projects, and dedicated forums, etc . etc.

A place with all sorts of links to things TiddlyWiki.

I’m thinking of a static web site as portal, an export of TiddlyWiki vs a single-file TiddlyWiki (and vs TiddlyWiki served up on nodejs). A properly organized resource for documentation (using TiddlyTalk, or any discussion software, as a documentation resource is not practical.)

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#11

@PS12 , thanks for your feedback!

Each point of view is important because anything can do that we use something or not, as you said.

@Charlie_Veniot , I think that your idea is similar to the great landing page made by @Odin some time ago → https://landingpage-example.tiddlyhost.com/

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#12

Blasphemously, I’m thinking something way less TiddlyWiki-esque. preferably not TiddlyWiki-esque at all, in appearance.

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#13

Have you change the layout? (See the tiddler on top)

tiddlywiki.com could have a the landing page layout as default. With all those places work in this layout.

#14

I didn’t want to say anything because I get tired of critiquing, but if I must:

Sure that landing page looks more inviting. I think most folk new to TiddlyWiki and looking into it would like it. I am no fan of TiddlyTalk-esque look/design, turns me right off, but for what @PS12 is talking about, I think that hits the spot.

Nah, I’m thinking way beyond that (possibly way beyond the spirit of the original post). Something like the example I gave that is for after the landing page. Past the “introductions”, as in you are now into TiddlyWiki, and are ready to get, possibly just superficially, possibly nose-deep, into the weeds.

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#15

@jeremyruston This is going to take longer than just a few days. I would like to propose solutions, not just point out the problems. Hope this is okay.

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#16

I don’t there is any real hurry and you should take the time you need.

I would recommend to not put too much effort or time into thinking about solutions before airing the ideas in public, as there might be circumstances or other factors that influence what is or isn’t practical or suitable for the project.

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#17

Of course! I understand the desire to be constructive, but I also wouldn’t worry too much about proposing solutions, understanding the experience that you had is the important thing here.

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