Definitely moving over to the Discourse community. See you all there!
Best,
Joshua Fontany
Signed up for Discourse - can’t find any hits when searching “TiddlyWiki” - did I just lose access to the community?
JWH
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Hi All,
Unless Jeremy plans to do the same sorry but no thanks and even then probably not. Other than it being a perhaps more feature rich, and newer platform is there really a burning need to make this switch now? I know its been debated here for a long time and have read the arguments both for and against but this sounds as though it is being forced upon us regardless of Jeremys reluctance to do so for some reason. Maybe google has announced it is killing off groups, Jeremy has decided it is for the best, or something else I am unaware of? (very possible I suffer from brain damage and am no longer really in the know anymore, but do rely on getting these emails to try and stay up on developments with TiddlyWiki and the plugin work being done). I can still use TiddlyWiki to great advantage but no longer have the ability to write plugins or do many things I used to do before. Anything new is pretty much impossible for me to learn. Will discourse offer these email updates like the one I am responding to here and will those of us who choose not to join discourse (my mind is unable to learn new things) be registered to receive those if this is done or will I need to register my email address in their site in order to keep these condensed emails coming to me? I also feel there is a wealth of historical information in this group that would be a shame if not transferred over (perhaps it has?) Anyway, I hope replying to “all” is the proper way to ask. If not I do apologize. Also, I am not being critical of this change just explaining my inability to do this and feel it is pointless unless Jeremy wants to make this change as well. If so I guess this group can still stand as an archive of all the history and work that has been done to get us here and if it offers that condensed email capability then maybe. I DO NOT want an email for every post being made thats is an absolute!
Thanks,
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Ed,
Many of us who are deeply imbedded and active in Google Groups have good reasons and arguments to move. Apart from the fact you can’t even reply on a mobile, mark code in a forum post and more Discourse solves a range of problems and issues that I expect you do not experience every day.
We can’t rely on Google any more and moving to talk.tiddlywiki.org puts control into the communities hands. In many ways “a move” if not “this move” has being on the cards for years, however getting consensus from the community is like herding cats. To put this decision on Jeremy alone is also asking too much.
I know change can be difficult but as always the community is here to help, and from what I have seen Discourse offers everything and more than GG. So I am confident we can restore the functionality you want.
Please continue to raise issues but also let the community help you transition or solve the problems you experience, or even ultimately change our minds because of your experience.
If you did not see yet, signing up at talk.tiddlywiki.org with your google login is possibly the easiest entry to the new system.
Yours sincerely
Tony
Tony,
Ed did not complain. He would not like to miss totally out on the group and is afraid that will happen! Explained that his need was to receive email summary as that is the only way it would be possible for him to enjoy the part possible for him to use. The question was not about the reasoning for some to want the move - but: “Will I be able to receive email summary from this new group - and if so, can someone help me get it set up?”
Just as when you asked for a couple of days, why you were not able to login and get writing in the new group - and asked repeatedly to get help from moderators to be able to write to the group. (Sure easy to sign up - you now write). Other people have other problems, and not everyone has all of your expertise in using all sorts of groups at a professional level.
As a promoter for the move and now a leader in the new group prepare for questions like this - and be happy when they are asked. This group is large and lots of users have used it for years - but have special needs to be able to do so. If questions like this is not met with answers - those users will just be sorry and give up without telling you - and have lost yet another thing in life. Please remember that someone’s gain is often happening while others loose out.
We know that quite some users of this group -found ways to keep using Tiddlywiki and this group. And at. some point explained their special needs and why they needed a solution. Poor eyesight or blindness has been one of them.
I would think that promoting the discourse group - why not make it clear - can you use the group directly from receiving emails - emails summary. Can you use the group fully if your only way of being able is using a screen reader?
Others have written earlier about having difficulty with busy screens, moving parts - and lot of colour - lots of changing screens with shifting layouts - and even more I cannot remember now. Explain how to use it for those - if possible.
If people with special needs are not in the target group for the the new group - save time and explain why.
Please think about it - and ask people to explain their problems - and try to find solutions. Use those points in the promotion. Plenty of telling it is beautiful, easy, what some wants etc. I think most have read that by now.
And the questions have to be asked before your wished making this group read only - because afterwards - you will never know.
Who IS in the Target group for the new group? And then list the promoting points - ALL of them. Show that list clearly in both groups.
Please - I did not in anyway want to offend anyone - but we are not all the same.
Hi Ed,
Gosh, your situation sounds scary. I don’t know if I could stick with it under your circumstances.
Yes, you will need to sign up at talk.tiddlywiki.org. But the good news is that you can use your existing gmail address, so you won’t have to learn anything new there.
Once you sign up, you, or a helper, will need to navigate to the settings:
In the upper right hand corner click on your avatar, then on the little man tab, then on the cog, then from the list on the left click on “Emails”. Under “Activity Summary” you can select to receive a summary weekly, monthly, or bi-annually. I could put together some screen shots if that would help, though I feel that should be done with someone with an official capacity.
The funny thing is, to get these summaries, you have to NEVER visit the new forum! It only sends you summaries if you stay away!
The thing I don’t know is if you can reply to a summary, just like to an email. Maybe an admin can comment.
There is a mail list mode, but it sends you every single post, which I don’t think is what you want. Most other systems have mail list modes with summaries, but that option isn’t on the drop down.
It only sends summaries if one stays away from the forum? What the frig kind of messed-up design is that ?
There are certain kinds of flaws that I can tolerate and some of those even understand, but that design has me feeling this way about the designer.
If you’ve not used discourse-based forums I could understand how “summaries if one stays away” could seem backwards. I actually find it useful in other forums I follow. If you are busy doing other things you’ll get a summary of popular topics you’ve missed that can remind you to re-engage. If you are actively visiting the forum you won’t be bothered with pointless email about with things you’ve probably already seen.
You’ll soon learn to re-visit the forum discussions that pique your interest from the email and reply there.
Thank You! I do have trouble communicating my thoughts clearly and keep this photo on my phone when I run into situations where I think I may need to explain why (they do this yearly and there has been no change in the 3/4 inch diameter hole in a very big head LOL). I am not looking for pity but hoping to help make your point. We are all using TiddlyWiki with our own understanding and skills. You are also absolutely right, the condensed updates are as much or more than I can handle personally as is (you guys are way too busy!) LOL. I keep up with these just to make sure what few plugins I use are not known or expected to break as TW evolves. Also, I think it is important that Jeremy has a say in which he wants to use. Realizing of course the real discussion is happening in GIT but all of that is way over my head now anyway. Still his announcements about new features and explanations on how to use those when questions come up here as well as the base TiddlyWiki without addons or plugins (or at least as minimal a set as possible) have been extremely helpful to me. So where he goes I need to go because he knows when he adds new features he needs to make the explanations and use of them as intuitive and user friendly (there’s an old term!) as possible and most likely with those explanations in mind. TiddlyWiki itself is the best example that I can think of due to its simplicity in a way. It has amazing capabilities but an ease of use unparalleled by programs that have almost none of the customization capabilities allowing it to be used as needed. I have seen efforts to write books and manuals fail not due to a lack of effort, knowledge, or ability but a lack of being able to keep up with the pace TW5 evolves which is an amazing example of how much work Jeremy and those who help him have put into this over the years! To me this group does represent a record of all that effort and progress he might prefer continues here?
But not trying to argue for or against with anyone. LOL I know longer have those skills either (happily). I am Just trying to keep up, which is probably a fool’s errand anyway but, also offer a reminder that unless there is a fork planned I personally feel no one should just take the community he has built here and put it over there without him at least being a part of that decision.
Thanks!
Someone say herding cats? Let me testify, just like with walking into Mordor, you don’t just herd cats. You lead them. And if they don’t feel like following, it probably won’t be happening…
Yes, I know I’m no help…
Will Discourse threads be indexed by Google in general? I’m sure a few people (myself included) depend on the ease of being able to find TW info from this group (as well as TW official static pages) on normal Google web search results (I believe TW Reddit content also will come up in web searches)
Hi Ed
Apologies, I’m taking a short holiday break, but wanted to jump in to reassure you (and others) of a few points:
a) talk.tiddlywiki.org is an experiment for the moment, but my hope is that we will migrate all of our Google Groups to the new service (and set the old groups to “read-only” so that they will continue to be available as an archive)
b) the idea of migrating from Google Groups has been floating around for many years, but I’ve always been very cautious about. A great friend of TiddlyWiki called Boris Mann kindly offered to help get us set up on the new platform, an offer which was meaningful because he already runs several other instances of Discourse
c) It has to be an experiment because we want to bring everyone with us to the new platform. There’s been a lot of great feedback about what people like about the new forum, and what they struggle with. The volunteers are working hard to tweak the system to suit everyone
d) My own experience is that Discourse is superior to Google Groups in almost every way, but I don’t underestimate the friction of making the change
Lastly, thank you for sharing your situation with us. Your perspective is inspiring, and there’s a lot for us to learn about inclusivity. In the software development industry a certain amount of lip service is paid to accommodating users with visual, auditory or motor difficulties, but very little to cognitive impairment. I suffered from some of it when my long COVID was at its worst, which certainly left me thinking that these considerations would only increase in importance.
Best wishes
Jeremy
4 Likes
Ciao Jeremy
Very GOOD reply. Very frank, clear, to the point. You really are a very, very good BDFL.
Just FYI, regarding moving … I agree with all your points. Especially (b) where the wanting to move OFF GG has come up seriously several times in the last few years, and which this initiative may solve. And (c) where it is IMPORTANT we don’t rush the process of transfer (IF any); it being vital to ensure that Discourse will serve ALL of us well into the future. Addressing Ed’s case is highly pertinent to achieving that IMO .
Regarding (d), the facilities Discourse offers, its looks superior to GG. My concern is it is quite complex (rich) and I want to be sure a newbie will be able to cope in a way they can get answers they need.
I suspect WE may need to provide more documentation to make this side of it easier.
Just my thoughts at the moment
Best wishes
Josiah
All of that is totally valid and well said, but do keep in mind:
When something is too complex for an individual with a cognitive disability (including Edward, including me, including whoever else), the complexity of an application and/or the interface, that doesn’t really get resolved by more documentation.
More documentation, in itself, becomes a cognitive barrier.
The ideal is an interface that is easy to understand without any documentation. An interface that is by default at its simplest out of the gate, but easily/intuitively allows more complexity via easily found options. Complexity, by design and by default, is best as an opt-in feature, not an opt-out feature.
“Opt-in” is easy for those who are not dealing with a cognitive disability, and might be possibly eased into for those with a cognitive disability.
“Opt-out” can be challenging for those with a cognitive disability because everything is overwhelming by default. (Cognitive overload, over-stimulating, causing immediate deer-in-the-headlights or fight-or-flight-reaction.)
Well, I can wish on the one hand and poop in the other, and I know which hand will get filled first … (Yeah, I love “Grumpy Old Men” references. Grandpa Gustafson!)
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Birthe/Strike,
I hope Ed did not think “I thought he was complaining”. I think my argument points out the new platform will be valuable to everyone, and is important, despite the pain of change. In fact it is really important Ed and Charlie etc… understand I will help in any way I can.
Some of these improvements will help reduce cognitive load once we have them working, like being able to have a Wiki Post that we can all edit which ultimately can summarise a thread.
Also I would hope the overriding message is “as a community we can work with our diverse community” to support and enable them which I can really see is necessary when moving to a fully featured solution. Basically unlike many other communities members can get personal one on one support. We have done some in the past, and yes we can do so more, but the community seems dedicated to do so.
Still I welcome your comments.
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Jeremy,
I understand the value in making GG read only however we have not done this with the GG Dev forum and it has not caused too many issues, yes the users are more involved and limited compared to the greater group.
However, I would like to suggest only making it read only in the long run if necessary, because in part; I discovered the other day, some sites, editions or macro plugin developers use URLs that reference a GG Discussion as the way to contact them, if there is a bug or issue with their published content.
If we make the forum read only people will no longer be able to contact them, perhaps unless we provide guidance so they can message the author of the post or a replier on the read only forum. Of course authors could add a reply now advising users of a new discussion location in discourse but may not have the opportunity to do so before it goes read only.
Regards
Tones
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Hi Tony,
I honestly didn’t read your reply as a complaint but thought mine may have sounded that way or offended someone. Misunderstandings and confusion are now a cloud that surrounds not only me but all those who dare try to interpret what I am attempting to express as well LOL and a good reason to keep that picture handy! Anyway, after looking at discourse (I hadn’t even peeked) and seeing I can go there and find out what is happening from time to time without even setting up an account and knowing Jeremy is behind this, I see nothing to worry about. I like sticking to the core and avoiding addons as much as possible anyway.
Thanks Jeremy for letting me know what’s happening and you are behind this. I am so sorry to hear you had to deal with this bug! We do not want you in my shape, get or stay well whichever best applies!
So, If it helps? I have been pretty much just lurking since 2014 when all this stuff happened to me anyway and regretfully right in the middle of a group effort with many here to build an add on for TW5 that would fulfill a very specific need in education and I see has now been done ( a moodle extension using scorm or whatever they are calling it now)! I am so happy to see that but feel I had to let down many and regretfully it’s of little use to me now (no longer able to teach). The purpose I had was to use on very limited tablets, in correctional (prison) systems, to get around the fact that they had no internet access, only a browser for email, but with TW5 would be able to pull and receive data from a learning management server on site which I had already established, allowing the teacher and student to track progress etc. I do appreciate and apologize to all here that were in that group when this happened; it did present capabilities far beyond my use in a greater educational role as well and we were all very excited about it at the time. My stroke and brain tumor came out of nowhere (I can’t even remember if I was able to let anyone here know about it). My first surgery I came out OK but not right, requiring a second that really did some damage but I am one of a very few who have survived everything that happened to me I am told. I am still in a fight trying to recover memories, and some of the very basic abilities I had before like simply playing my guitar for relaxation (I was a professional musician for decades before teaching full time). Administering a network much less teaching others to do so is definitely never going to be an option again (or working for that matter the cloud of confusion is very real. Cognitive abilities tested and with everything else surrounding this I am no longer able to work in any setting. I am now on full disability just trying to write this is taking an eternity). We had an awesome team but it serves as a great example of why not to get married to any platform including Goole. Perhaps if our GG here can be exported that would be wise? We were using something I think G+ or Google+ but whatever it was is now gone and all that was communicated within it. I would hate to see that happen here regardless of platform and know you guys definitely know what’s going on now better than I do.
I read these condensed email updates weekly and then only occasionally the full threads within them when I think there might be something I need to know or I can use. I am not sure (memory is really bad) but I think my only posts in the last several years and maybe since my surgeries were just about this particular subject anyway. Fighting change for changes sake and my ability to cope with it LOL. The last thing I would want to see happen and I sure others with similar problems agree would be to see anything hinder TW5 development and beyond. Jermey is the master of making the complicated simple (seriously Jeremy you would make a great teacher if you were not such an awesome developer!) so far all releases have been pretty self explanatory as far as basic functionality goes anyway especially with his release notes and the help he and everyone here or later there in discourse provides. So until I really need to communicate I will probably just lurk there as I have here and search threads on both to find answers to any questions I may have. Almost always anything I might have a question about has already been asked and answered anyway. You guys are awesome and I want you to know that despite what I can or can not do I am 100% behind all of you!
Thanks,
Ed,
It is truly amazing given what you have gone through that you are here and keeping an interest and sharing your story. I believe strongly that TiddlyWiki is a tool towards democratising software for every one with different skills, ability, experience, capacities in different areas. If it is what I believe it to be, it must be able to support all our needs small or large. Everyone of our community members especially with different needs are valuable participants, because without you all we cant be exposed to the issues that arise, and our communities capacity diminishes.
If we play our cards right tiddlywiki will enable far more than average Joes.
Best wishes
Tony
Hello all,
As always, late to the party. Seems lots has happened while I was away.
Good to hear an alternative to Google Groups in underway.
Just signed up in: talk.tiddlywiki.org
Stay safe, stay healthy everyone.
Regards,
Julio
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Same here, also notoriously late to the show. Also just created an account on talk.tiddlywiki.org. Can only get better than GG.
Kind regards
Werner