"Nah... not for me" - Why?

#105

Haven’t read through the whole thread but wanted to chime in anyway. From my own experience I know that different groups of people think, act and communicate differently. Different in such a way that they, many times, don’t understand each other.

You can go to any regular company where they have their own IT department and you will find out that “business people” and “it people” don’t get along and don’t understand each other. Still they need each other, so if they want to create something valuable you put in a sort of translator.

Translation is key here.

If you want to serve different groups of people that can benefit from TW you should make it easy for those different groups to “find their own sound”.

  • for note takers
  • for information hoarders
  • for developers
  • for website owners
  • for personal application makers
  • for community builders

(I’m making those groups up for illustration purposes.)

What happens now is that you come to Tiddlywiki.com:

  • have to learn that language first
  • translate it to your own
  • find some use for it
  • start using the newly learned language
  • transform that to something you can actually use

Those are steps that are pretty daunting in themselves. And here is a whole cluster of them…

So turning that around would look more like this:

  • I have an idea and it looks similar to this pick an example from the TW5 website
  • getting some explanation how this example was build in your own language
  • start using the examples and grow from there linking each example to other possibilities (incl. examples!), isn’t that what TW is good at anyway?
  • end up with something you can already actually use

It is my understanding that the intention of TiddlyWiki from the start was to give people the possibility to create their own applications.

Good stuff these discussions because it becomes clear that we need to attend to things beyond technical capabilities in order to fulfill that initial intention.

5 Likes
#106

I have being translating tech to business and reverse most of my life professionally. Thus I registered a business name “InterpretingIT”, I cant agree more.

@EricShulman this is interesting, I have not taken this approach so much, trying to solicit the expertise from others since in my professional experience it was me that was the expert trying to put things into words the non-expert could understand. In this case I had to be both the IT and Business expert which was hard work sometimes.

#107

This is my first post here. I’m new to TW as of Oct. 3rd.
What a great post/question, how can I pass this up! :sweat_smile:

I truly don’t mean to offend in this reply, but perhaps my newbie perspective will help shed some light (or laughs). I will risk being a bit blunt.

For starters I keep wondering where I sit as a TW user? Still teetering on “Nah… not for me” because this small user base is obviously a lot more tech literate than myself. (And gawd I hope I’m replying to the right ‘reply to the OP’ because this forum setup is kinda hard on the eyes/brain). But I have to agree that small user bases that have been around this long usually mean something awesome is afoot, but probably hellishly out of my league.

Anyways, I stumbled upon TW when looking for a “free” outlining tool since I no longer (want to) have access to MS-Word. I’m pretty sure it was more than one recommendation/review that suggested, "easy to use, easy to customise… perfect for writers… " and soon found myself on the official “HelloThere…” page, scrolled down to “GettingStarted”, grimaced and went back to do another duck-duck search. Nothing, nada, zilch. So I gave it a shot… within an hour I was on Discord, dazed and confused. My fault for not wanting to “use TiddlyWiki - the easiest way” via Tiddlyhost.

That “GettingStarted” page needs a rewrite. Trust me, if the “HelloThere” tiddler doesn’t scare away the newbies, you can afford to say from the start, “if you can’t figure out what we mean by ‘available methods for saving…’ then just do it via Tiddlyhost until you know wtf you are getting into.” You know, like using one of those red warning icons right at the top. To my credit I did read the one about not saving via the browser!

My initial confusion was the lack of instructions… and the terminology.

It’s just nice for anyone to have more certainty when trying something new, like…

Step-1. Consider which of the following 3 options you prefer to begin using TW5:
a) Standalone App (offline) using web-browser, where TW-file(s) are saved locally.
b) Using web-browser for online access to save TW-file(s) to your own hosting.
c) Using web-browser to subscribe to a TW5-enabled hosting service account, eg. Tiddyhost.

Step-2. Tick one or more boxes to choose your operating system(s). A number of methods and/or services for saving your TW content will display, depending on your choices. Click on the options to learn more about each one.

Instead I was thinking, “badge? What badge?”
And they look like cards more than a badge. Badge is still something you pin to a lapel in my book.

Step-3. For options A or B (Step-1), download the “empty” copy of TiddlyWiki

Actually, that’s wrong, because you just don’t know if you need that empty copy until you’ve figured out what all those saving options really do. It definitely shouldn’t be the 2nd instruction (without instructions).

Come to think of it, “GettingStarted” needs to begin with…

Step-0. What kind of User are you?
a) Total newbie (ie. who or what is Json? Am I a Git?) → subscribe to Microsoft Office.
b) Newbie (ie. I could learn to code) → best options for you are…
c) I know Json and I have a Git account → be sure to check out node.js

I’m thinking that I’m a b-minus. :wink:

3 Likes
#108

Very useful insights!

Your impressions on “first hit” are valuable I think for developers to read.

TT

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#109

Yeah exactly. When learning something new I read things too literally, and when the instructions don’t exist or are confusing, I lose confidence.

Grok got me back on track, but even that resource is pegged at users far more confident in tackling code. It has a lot of jargon, but is so well written and paced. He really considered the learner’s perspective.

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#110

My experience was very similar a few months ago. One of the main reasons I decided to stick with TW is that I want to learn to code and TW seems a very good introduction to this world.

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#115

Anakowi’s description of the new user experience is really valuable I think. Thank’s for sharing that.

I’ll share some of my own thoughts on this topic. I’ll also be blunt, so you may need to brace yourself… :sweat_smile: :heart:

My suspicion is that Anakowi’s experience represents the tip of a large iceberg, i.e. people who learn about TiddlyWiki, read the intro material, think some variation of “wtf, this is weird/confusing”, and then leave never to return.

Users who persist through the initial onboarding hurdles end up with experiences such as this Twitter story. That story has a happy ending, but again I suspect that for every one story like that, there are 1000 others where the person gives up in frustration. Looking around this forum it’s not hard to find similar examples, but remember, the majority of the “user tries then gives up” stories are probably not seen, (i.e. they are the invisible underwater part of the iceberg).

IMO the TiddlyWiki community has a general blindness to, or unawareness of bad user experience. This isn’t new, but I think it’s been distilled stronger over time as TiddlyWiki and the community attract those who share this blind spot, and (unintentionally) repel those who don’t.

I see this as TiddlyWiki’s biggest problem, and it’s deep and pervasive. Rewording the HelloWorld tiddler might be a good idea, but I wonder what to do about the general problem. Becoming aware of it and acknowledging it as a problem would be a starting point I guess, (and so I write this post…).

6 Likes
#116

I’m curious, why did you ignore this suggestion?

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#117

Am I not looking at the right story? That’s not someone onboarding – that’s someone doing some very advanced stuff.

I’m not sure what you’re suggesting TW users are blind to. If it’s the “saving” aspect, then I think everyone is aware of it, but no one is sure what to do about it. Realistically, I think only Jeremy can make the whole-sale changes to the Getting Started tiddler that would simplify it. I know I wanted a single line of text in the tiddler that would explain why you need a saving mechanism, but wasn’t able to get it through. I think without an explanation, people are confused why they have to download more than one thing – which isn’t what they are comfortable with.

Even though we are in the fourth generation of the personal computer revolution, a lot of people just have a formulaic understanding of computer systems. TW doesn’t fit the “Download, install, run” formula people are comfortable with. Nor does it fit the Google Playstore model. It takes a little more, and that’s the price you pay for something that can run exactly as-is on 5 different platforms and in at least 3 different modes.

When I look at TW, I see something that is immediately usable. You don’t have to know widgets and filters to get started. Just start making tiddlers. It seems like the people who are having “experience” issues want to immediately start doing something complicated – something you might not even be able to do at all on Wikimedia, Evernote, or any other application.

2 Likes
#118

Welcome @Anakowi great to have your feedback and newbie views. May I ask you to suspend judgement on TiddlyWiki a little longer, some of your conclusions are off a little, but we need to help users like you transition as easily as possible.

  • In your three options, perhaps there are four, perhaps first step is to play with tiddlywiki in the browser and only if necessary save to file.
  • You DO NOT need to know what Git or JSON is to use TiddlyWiki

@Anakowi @TiddlyDave What if you were presented with something like?

  • You do not need to code to use TiddlyWIki but you can, Are you unfamiliar with coding or want to avoid it?
    • Then we would provide a little more info targeted at this kind of user
  • There is an intermediate use of TiddlyWiki and a large majority of users need not learn HTML/CSS its just all the enthusiast’s that seem to want to fiddle with it (Including me), Wiki text belongs in the Introductory level, widgets in the intermediate level.
  • I think we don’t make any promises that “It won’t hurt too much”, you can “use it with wikitext, but not coding” and other “well worded promises” that means they may look deeper to see if it lives up to the promises.

TiddlyWiki is many things and can be used without coding of any type but of course people find themselves digging deeper and deeper to satisfy there curiosity and build awesome things. This natural tendency of most users, sets them on a path of discovery, that also builds internationally in demand skills, but only if you want to. Those already with the internet and development skills find TiddlyWiki an ideal platform, on which to build solution’s and experiments.

Which path do you want to take today?

  • I just want to make use of the basics!
    • This can go a long way with the addition of optional plugins people have written to help less experienced users.
  • Teach me the basics but I have an idea I want to implement!
    • This community can help guide you to existing solutions, plugins or tools to get you where you are headed, just ask.
  • I am curious about how powerful it can be and where it may lead me?
  • I am an experienced app/software user looking for something like tiddlywiki but I am not sure!
  • I am an experienced designer/developer looking for something like tiddlywiki but I am not sure!
  • I am a designer/developer looking for a platform on which to do a proof of concept, Minimum viable Product MVP or publish my projects from conceptual designs through to HTML/Javascript or libraries.

Then we provide additional information for each self classification written to that skill level.

I would also see value in documenting tiddlywiki at a conceptual level, not just as a whole but in the key areas such as text, wikitext, tags, lists, filters etc… perhaps with a rating “beginner to expert”. This would allow people to “Peek ahead” gain inspiration but not be intimidated when they do not understand the more advanced subjects, only develop aspirations.

  • We also need to find a way to show how people develop editions and plugins so users need not get technical.
#119

Here’s a really quick win, if anyone’s interested. Massive impact for relatively low effort.

On Android go to the Google Play store, search Tiddlywiki, check out the first app that comes up. It’s called AndTidWiki. It was last updated in 2013 and is obsolete both for Android and for Tiddlywiki 5. If you persist, the installation process tells you it may not work.

For potentially hundreds of millions of people, this is the front door to Tiddlywiki. And it looks completely abandoned. Read the comments on Google Play store.

Whoever fixes this will be introducing millions of people to a workable Tiddlywiki experience.

And if you think that’s bad, wait till you try searching for “Tiddlywiki” on the iPad app store.

These two instances are a massive opportunity for someone to make Tiddlywiki much more accessible for the world. If Tiddlywiki is as good as people here seem to think it is, there’s no reason for someone not to be able to build a positive app store experience out of it.

Background:
I use Tiddlywiki every day, on a windows laptop and every week on my iPad using Quine. I’d like to use it on Android but it’s too difficult for me. Also, I’d like to use Tiddlywiki as the basis for a static website, but don’t really have the time to fiddle with it.
Like the OP, I’m not any kind of coder. I tried using Tiddlywiki years ago, loved it then gave up because I couldn’t work out how to save anything. About 2 years later I tried again and worked it out by perseverance. There were a few good YouTube videos by Francis Meetze that made it clear. His introduction video is still the most popular on YouTube but it uses Tiddlyfox, which is an obsolete plugin. So that’s another thing to fix (not the plugin - the fact that the most popular YouTube tutorial is seriously out of date.)

Now I use Tiddlywiki most days, both at work and at home. But I don’t recommend it to people because setting up a saving mechanism is tricky. That’s why it would be so great to just tell people to download the app. Failing that, I do think the “choose your own adventure” approach at tiddlywiki.com might help some persistent people. That didn’t exist when I started out. Another great help, though a bit daunting, is Grok Tiddlywiki. A more basic tutorial in this style would be wonderful.

4 Likes
#120

Well, actually Android is a lot of effort, because they keep changing their various file access and security protocols. Google believes in moving fast and breaking people.

The successor to AndTidWiki is Tiddloid. I’m surprised the creator hasn’t posted it to the playstore. That’s the direction I would have gone absent competition. It does take (last time I checked) $25 to register an app. Hopefully that isn’t the hang-up.

The successor to TiddlyFox is, essentially, Timimi.

All of these savers can be found using the little tool under “GettingStarted”. However, no particularly set of savers is promoted over any others. So users perusing the methods might not understand the relative merits. Like “Beaker” is right at the top of the list because of its place in the alphabet, and I’m not sure you can even save with it anymore.

Not an Ipad person. What does happen when you search for TiddlyWiki? It’s always been unclear to me. I think that there’s an old version of Quine that isn’t on the iPad store and only works with older versions of iOS, and then there’s a newer version (Quine2 ?) that only works with newer versions of iOS and costs $10.

#121

That’s the starting point I think, to offer a little more explanation. it need’nt be too complex, just clear enough to reassure. At the moment there’s nothing.

#122

Lots of good points. @TW_Tones – I’m sure some of my conclusions may be “off”, but I’m not making a judgement of the app since I’ve not yet tapped into all the possibilities.

Reviewing TWs appeal to a wider audience involves a bold relook at the history of how it’s been marketed – which is taking place in this discussion, right? I think there’s a pretty general consensus that there’s something here for every level of potential user.

From the little I’ve seen so far that offers a first look, you’re quickly steered into the deep end before you’re ready. The truth is, some potential users will never want to go there – and perhaps they don’t need to. However, currently there’s nothing I’ve seen so far that encourages a non-coding user that it’s ok to play-and-stay in the shallow waters — that TW5 will still deliver a useful note-taking environment.

@Mark_S – why? I suppose because I’m a bit weird that way. :upside_down_face: I’m retired. A bit old school and will keep a local copy of my data on an external HDD, which I replace every few years. Since I’d need to download backups of anything in the cloud anyway, it’s just easier to housekeep one data set.

Can be frustrating, but it’s something developers and IT support people just need to accept. I suspect that many people gravitated towards desktop computer use after being introduced to iOS/Android devices.
Remember some of the early editions of Apps - by independent developers? They were amazing, powerful, even though severely crippled by the tech limitations. Sadly many disappeared before reaching the next levels of hardware opportunity because they pitched over the heads of the median market. Many were bought out by larger orgs who offered and sold scaled down, formulaic versions, still in beta IMO, but unbelievably acceptable to the market. Why? Shrinkwrapped, instructions and support included.
I can’t think of an open-source app that holds it horses back. Why? I love the idea that there are no limitations, but is everyone ready for that?

#125

TW doesn’t fit the “Download, install, run” formula people are comfortable with. Nor does it fit the Google Playstore model. It takes a little more, and that’s the price you pay for something that can run exactly as-is on 5 different platforms and in at least 3 different modes.

I think the lack of either a download and run or a traditional SaaS offering is a turn-off for people who are new (though the non-traditional deployment model is what I was looking for), but I don’t think it has to be that way.

The reality is that TiddlyDesktop is close to what a lot of people would expect, possibly with some UX tinkering (“New Wiki”, “Open Wiki”, that sort of thing). Maybe the key is to funnel new users in that direction first, similar to what https://www.diagrams.net/ does.

1 Like
#126

Rightly so! We just want to “get on with it!” :slight_smile:

TT

#127

Right, for those seeking “apps” TiddlyDesktop (on desktops) is ace.
It behaves well as an application; even though it is just a Chromium powered front-end.

TT

1 Like
#128

That is a very pertinent comment IMO.

It is unfortunately true that searching for TW cross-platform does bring up some dead-ends.

Why? Because there is NO method to harmonise the multiple directions TW is going in all the time. The potential of TW is often opened and later abandoned. Those loose ends can cause confusion over time.

Just a comment
TT

1 Like
#131

So from what I see these appear to be the biggest points of failure:

  1. The language of the front page uses confusing terminology
  2. People are confused by TW being neither Software-as-a-Service nor a downloadable app
  3. The number of saver options is too large and creates an option paralysis
  4. Tiddlyhost is a recommended option but seems to not be the obvious way to go

First of all though:

I can’t quite quote specific examples or people, but from what I’ve read so far I did feel some resistance to change and disconnect from non-TW users in various threads. And as a “let’s do something about it” person I feel like most that happens is talking while I crave doing (and yes I know it’s much more complicated).

Some thoughts about the four issues:

  • #1 this could theoretically be fixed with a rewrite but, as I alluded in my Comparative Analysis I and in a comment … somewhere, I think TW front page should be remade from the ground up, because right now it feels like it’s primarily aimed at advanced TW users.
  • #2 and #3 are I think related. As a technologically literate person I find “Open this page and just save it to your computer” to be antiquated at best, and I think an average user may not quite understand how it’s supposed to work. I remember myself being confused how the savers work and having weird issues with the github saver, the number of options is just too large. There is a reason SaaS apps are doing so well - they’re easy to use.
  • #4 My case was probably atypical in that I had some preconceived notions about there not being any TW hosting (because of reading some outdated information on google groups), but I feel like the main reason is that’s another layer of trust you need to extend, since TiddlyHost is a separate entity from the open source project.

I don’t really know where I am going with this, but one thing for sure is I think it’s worth taking a look at Wordpress’s business model. They have an open source, free project + free hosting for said product + paid, tiered hosting for more features and capabilities. I think TW could fit such model really well.

1 Like
#133

Right.

The differential Wordpress modes matter. (They evolved over time.)

Why? (1) you can be freebie and learn the hard way; (2) you can go more commercial & get good help easily.

TT