Yeah exactly. When learning something new I read things too literally, and when the instructions don’t exist or are confusing, I lose confidence.
Grok got me back on track, but even that resource is pegged at users far more confident in tackling code. It has a lot of jargon, but is so well written and paced. He really considered the learner’s perspective.
My experience was very similar a few months ago. One of the main reasons I decided to stick with TW is that I want to learn to code and TW seems a very good introduction to this world.
Anakowi’s description of the new user experience is really valuable I think. Thank’s for sharing that.
I’ll share some of my own thoughts on this topic. I’ll also be blunt, so you may need to brace yourself… 
My suspicion is that Anakowi’s experience represents the tip of a large iceberg, i.e. people who learn about TiddlyWiki, read the intro material, think some variation of “wtf, this is weird/confusing”, and then leave never to return.
Users who persist through the initial onboarding hurdles end up with experiences such as this Twitter story. That story has a happy ending, but again I suspect that for every one story like that, there are 1000 others where the person gives up in frustration. Looking around this forum it’s not hard to find similar examples, but remember, the majority of the “user tries then gives up” stories are probably not seen, (i.e. they are the invisible underwater part of the iceberg).
IMO the TiddlyWiki community has a general blindness to, or unawareness of bad user experience. This isn’t new, but I think it’s been distilled stronger over time as TiddlyWiki and the community attract those who share this blind spot, and (unintentionally) repel those who don’t.
I see this as TiddlyWiki’s biggest problem, and it’s deep and pervasive. Rewording the HelloWorld tiddler might be a good idea, but I wonder what to do about the general problem. Becoming aware of it and acknowledging it as a problem would be a starting point I guess, (and so I write this post…).
I’m curious, why did you ignore this suggestion?
Am I not looking at the right story? That’s not someone onboarding – that’s someone doing some very advanced stuff.
I’m not sure what you’re suggesting TW users are blind to. If it’s the “saving” aspect, then I think everyone is aware of it, but no one is sure what to do about it. Realistically, I think only Jeremy can make the whole-sale changes to the Getting Started tiddler that would simplify it. I know I wanted a single line of text in the tiddler that would explain why you need a saving mechanism, but wasn’t able to get it through. I think without an explanation, people are confused why they have to download more than one thing – which isn’t what they are comfortable with.
Even though we are in the fourth generation of the personal computer revolution, a lot of people just have a formulaic understanding of computer systems. TW doesn’t fit the “Download, install, run” formula people are comfortable with. Nor does it fit the Google Playstore model. It takes a little more, and that’s the price you pay for something that can run exactly as-is on 5 different platforms and in at least 3 different modes.
When I look at TW, I see something that is immediately usable. You don’t have to know widgets and filters to get started. Just start making tiddlers. It seems like the people who are having “experience” issues want to immediately start doing something complicated – something you might not even be able to do at all on Wikimedia, Evernote, or any other application.
Welcome @Anakowi great to have your feedback and newbie views. May I ask you to suspend judgement on TiddlyWiki a little longer, some of your conclusions are off a little, but we need to help users like you transition as easily as possible.
@Anakowi @TiddlyDave What if you were presented with something like?
TiddlyWiki is many things and can be used without coding of any type but of course people find themselves digging deeper and deeper to satisfy there curiosity and build awesome things. This natural tendency of most users, sets them on a path of discovery, that also builds internationally in demand skills, but only if you want to. Those already with the internet and development skills find TiddlyWiki an ideal platform, on which to build solution’s and experiments.
Which path do you want to take today?
Then we provide additional information for each self classification written to that skill level.
I would also see value in documenting tiddlywiki at a conceptual level, not just as a whole but in the key areas such as text, wikitext, tags, lists, filters etc… perhaps with a rating “beginner to expert”. This would allow people to “Peek ahead” gain inspiration but not be intimidated when they do not understand the more advanced subjects, only develop aspirations.
Here’s a really quick win, if anyone’s interested. Massive impact for relatively low effort.
On Android go to the Google Play store, search Tiddlywiki, check out the first app that comes up. It’s called AndTidWiki. It was last updated in 2013 and is obsolete both for Android and for Tiddlywiki 5. If you persist, the installation process tells you it may not work.
For potentially hundreds of millions of people, this is the front door to Tiddlywiki. And it looks completely abandoned. Read the comments on Google Play store.
Whoever fixes this will be introducing millions of people to a workable Tiddlywiki experience.
And if you think that’s bad, wait till you try searching for “Tiddlywiki” on the iPad app store.
These two instances are a massive opportunity for someone to make Tiddlywiki much more accessible for the world. If Tiddlywiki is as good as people here seem to think it is, there’s no reason for someone not to be able to build a positive app store experience out of it.
Background:
I use Tiddlywiki every day, on a windows laptop and every week on my iPad using Quine. I’d like to use it on Android but it’s too difficult for me. Also, I’d like to use Tiddlywiki as the basis for a static website, but don’t really have the time to fiddle with it.
Like the OP, I’m not any kind of coder. I tried using Tiddlywiki years ago, loved it then gave up because I couldn’t work out how to save anything. About 2 years later I tried again and worked it out by perseverance. There were a few good YouTube videos by Francis Meetze that made it clear. His introduction video is still the most popular on YouTube but it uses Tiddlyfox, which is an obsolete plugin. So that’s another thing to fix (not the plugin - the fact that the most popular YouTube tutorial is seriously out of date.)
Now I use Tiddlywiki most days, both at work and at home. But I don’t recommend it to people because setting up a saving mechanism is tricky. That’s why it would be so great to just tell people to download the app. Failing that, I do think the “choose your own adventure” approach at tiddlywiki.com might help some persistent people. That didn’t exist when I started out. Another great help, though a bit daunting, is Grok Tiddlywiki. A more basic tutorial in this style would be wonderful.
Well, actually Android is a lot of effort, because they keep changing their various file access and security protocols. Google believes in moving fast and breaking people.
The successor to AndTidWiki is Tiddloid. I’m surprised the creator hasn’t posted it to the playstore. That’s the direction I would have gone absent competition. It does take (last time I checked) $25 to register an app. Hopefully that isn’t the hang-up.
The successor to TiddlyFox is, essentially, Timimi.
All of these savers can be found using the little tool under “GettingStarted”. However, no particularly set of savers is promoted over any others. So users perusing the methods might not understand the relative merits. Like “Beaker” is right at the top of the list because of its place in the alphabet, and I’m not sure you can even save with it anymore.
Not an Ipad person. What does happen when you search for TiddlyWiki? It’s always been unclear to me. I think that there’s an old version of Quine that isn’t on the iPad store and only works with older versions of iOS, and then there’s a newer version (Quine2 ?) that only works with newer versions of iOS and costs $10.
That’s the starting point I think, to offer a little more explanation. it need’nt be too complex, just clear enough to reassure. At the moment there’s nothing.
Lots of good points. @TW_Tones – I’m sure some of my conclusions may be “off”, but I’m not making a judgement of the app since I’ve not yet tapped into all the possibilities.
Reviewing TWs appeal to a wider audience involves a bold relook at the history of how it’s been marketed – which is taking place in this discussion, right? I think there’s a pretty general consensus that there’s something here for every level of potential user.
From the little I’ve seen so far that offers a first look, you’re quickly steered into the deep end before you’re ready. The truth is, some potential users will never want to go there – and perhaps they don’t need to. However, currently there’s nothing I’ve seen so far that encourages a non-coding user that it’s ok to play-and-stay in the shallow waters — that TW5 will still deliver a useful note-taking environment.
@Mark_S – why? I suppose because I’m a bit weird that way. 
I’m retired. A bit old school and will keep a local copy of my data on an external HDD, which I replace every few years. Since I’d need to download backups of anything in the cloud anyway, it’s just easier to housekeep one data set.
Can be frustrating, but it’s something developers and IT support people just need to accept. I suspect that many people gravitated towards desktop computer use after being introduced to iOS/Android devices.
Remember some of the early editions of Apps - by independent developers? They were amazing, powerful, even though severely crippled by the tech limitations. Sadly many disappeared before reaching the next levels of hardware opportunity because they pitched over the heads of the median market. Many were bought out by larger orgs who offered and sold scaled down, formulaic versions, still in beta IMO, but unbelievably acceptable to the market. Why? Shrinkwrapped, instructions and support included.
I can’t think of an open-source app that holds it horses back. Why? I love the idea that there are no limitations, but is everyone ready for that?
TW doesn’t fit the “Download, install, run” formula people are comfortable with. Nor does it fit the Google Playstore model. It takes a little more, and that’s the price you pay for something that can run exactly as-is on 5 different platforms and in at least 3 different modes.
I think the lack of either a download and run or a traditional SaaS offering is a turn-off for people who are new (though the non-traditional deployment model is what I was looking for), but I don’t think it has to be that way.
The reality is that TiddlyDesktop is close to what a lot of people would expect, possibly with some UX tinkering (“New Wiki”, “Open Wiki”, that sort of thing). Maybe the key is to funnel new users in that direction first, similar to what https://www.diagrams.net/ does.
Rightly so! We just want to “get on with it!” 
TT
Right, for those seeking “apps” TiddlyDesktop (on desktops) is ace.
It behaves well as an application; even though it is just a Chromium powered front-end.
TT
That is a very pertinent comment IMO.
It is unfortunately true that searching for TW cross-platform does bring up some dead-ends.
Why? Because there is NO method to harmonise the multiple directions TW is going in all the time. The potential of TW is often opened and later abandoned. Those loose ends can cause confusion over time.
Just a comment
TT
So from what I see these appear to be the biggest points of failure:
First of all though:
I can’t quite quote specific examples or people, but from what I’ve read so far I did feel some resistance to change and disconnect from non-TW users in various threads. And as a “let’s do something about it” person I feel like most that happens is talking while I crave doing (and yes I know it’s much more complicated).
Some thoughts about the four issues:
I don’t really know where I am going with this, but one thing for sure is I think it’s worth taking a look at Wordpress’s business model. They have an open source, free project + free hosting for said product + paid, tiered hosting for more features and capabilities. I think TW could fit such model really well.
Right.
The differential Wordpress modes matter. (They evolved over time.)
Why? (1) you can be freebie and learn the hard way; (2) you can go more commercial & get good help easily.
TT
It is interesting.
I got very interested myself in the issue of “TOO MUCH OR NOT?”
In one way the welcome page is excellent in it’s liberality.
But I do think it an issue we can’t just have ONE method of “Universal Saving” bulit-in “Cross-Platform”.
As far as I can see we can’t.
A comment, TT
But … it’s not that kind of software. Not. Not. Not.
We could say, use TiddlyDesktop. Then, for people on smart phones, use TD to host a wiki folder and browse it locally for your phone. But there’s a fair bit of configuration people have to do for that. Too much, maybe?
So, offer TiddlyDesktop for 3 platforms, Quine for (some) iPhones, and Tiddloid for Android. Then link to the other savers with the short message “Other options.”
Edit: In relationship to the idea to using TD to host for smart phones. I always have to use TD for a few minutes to remind myself why I never use it. In particular, at the moment, if you use a wiki folder, it won’t serve up external images in the app window. You can configure the host/port and serve it up in the browser, but what if you wanted to use the app window on your desktop, while allowing small devices to use it on the local net? (v14). And of course, there’s the thing that every single wikifolder you serve has to have its own port. And you can’t serve up stand-alone wikis.
I thought your reply v. interesting.
I kinda points to “what is the minimal effective to show?” (And only that.)
I need think on it, TT
I’m about 3 tiddlers away from completing a Beginner’s practical introduction to using TiddlyWiki as a standalone app. AND…
It’s really been a challenge to NOT over complicate things. Now if anyone’s interested in this, where is the best place to share? Github? And be kind, I’ve written it as an absolute beginner myself.
My thoughts of late are that anyone landing on TW’s doorstep is either/and/or:
I still believe the “HelloThere…” page should be aimed at the LCD, beginner, with a not too obstrusive link to a fast-track for coders.