Derailing the Nah - What is TW?

#1

(This is an offshot of this topic in this thread: "Nah... not for me" - Why? - #169 by Mark_S)

So what is TW? I agree it’s not a multi-user note-sharing system, even if my comparison refers to such apps.

TW is certainly a kind of meta-wiki because you can go as far as to create apps or games, to a reasonable extent. Its scripting puts it way above tools like Notion in terms of capabilities, but the bareness makes it a hard sell.

But at it’s also a simple personal wiki, as you can never touch the scripting an be happy creating wikitext-only tiddlers and link them together.

And while @Mark_S is right that it’s not a multi-user note-sharing system, the plugin capabilities certainly allow you to get very close.

We could seek the answer to the question on the frontpage of TW:

Welcome to TiddlyWiki, a unique non-linear notebook for capturing, organising and sharing complex information.

But I personally have hard time understanding this description and the way I understand it it sells its capabilities short.

I have no answer, I’d rather hear what people who have more experience with TW to tell me how they’d define TW. Because I think knowing that is important in determining what, if any, steps could be taken to make it more appealing to new users (or get me to buzz off from all these complaining :slight_smile: ).

And if I were to put a marketing blurb on TW I’d go with something like this:

A notebook or todo.
A personal wiki or customizable web app.
Tiddly Wiki gives you power to do it all.

"Nah... not for me" - Why?
#2

Which plugins? The only thing I’m aware of is Bob, and, to be honest, it almost always breaks for me. And of course, setting it up in a public-facing capacity is way beyond the ken of most people looking for turn-key solutions.

#3

My basic definition would be…

TiddlyWiki is a highly flexible system that enables you to record atomic units of information and weave them together into a model that fits your brain. These units of information can be anything you want, even components of an application written in the macro scripting language of TiddlyWiki.

And for marketing purposes -

Start simple.
Craft your own perfect system.
Own your data.

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#4

I would describe it as

A Wiki
A tool for a personal knowledge base.

These simply reflect my use and interest.

I am pleased that “extras” are plugins and not core features - that way the core product doesn’t try and be a “swiss army knife” and be all things to all people, that comes hopefully out of the plugins - those who want other features can add them but we are not all pulled along the same path.

I think the core product is just about right, no complaints only good things to say, that’s not say I don’t have a list of wishes but I try and focus on my research - tiddlywiki is only the tool (although its a brilliant one), often it’s just better to manually steer around an obstacle than to fret about getting every last bit of desired functionality. I spend hours each day most days working with Tiddlywiki.

I use it in non-server - single html file mode which is one of the major bonuses for me.

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#5

I like the “atomic units of information” bit although discussions about how long a tiddler should be suggest that “atomic” might not be entirely accurate for many users. I have many tiddlers that are entire chapters from books or whole articles.

I still like the use of the word and your description.

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#6

"I have a material mostly made from cellulose that is very white, flat and cut up into neat rectangles. You can use a pen to write all kinds of things on it. And draw all kinds of things on it. And wrap it around fruit. And much more.

I’m thinking of calling it a notebook, because you can make notes on it. But it turns out you can share it among people so maybe it is a sharing system. Or maybe it is a todo list? Or a scribble-smiley-faces system? Apple wrapping? Ass wiper?"

Just maybe TW is like a piece of paper. You can do a lot of wonderful stuff with it but it, per se, isn’t an application. It is too unlimited for that. If anything, it is a tool to create applications.

I don’t even want to describe it as a wiki because that term sounds like an application when it IMO is merely a way to present and connect information. (BTW, I believe a main point with the original wiki invention was that it could be collaboratively edited… which really is a non-feature. The “paper” has had this feature since inception.) So, the term wiki is almost meaningless for TW. Or just maybe it is perfect exactly because it is so non-specific.

What is a paper? Well, it often depends on what you use it for. It is a substrate onto which we create stuff. Like TW.

#7

A "Personal Programmable Platform for Portable Problem-Solving and Productivity"

(yes… a bit “over-the-top”… but I like the alliteration :slight_smile: …)

  • Personal - although you can share it, it’s NOT “groupware”

  • Programmable - Although you don’t need to be a programmer, if you want/need the power, you can write everything from a “simple” macro to a fully-blown “Single Page Application” (SPA) Single-page application - Wikipedia.

  • Platform - It’s more than just one thing… “It’s a dessert topping AND a floor wax!”

  • Portable - As a single HTML file, you can take it anywhere. Just load it onto a USB memory stick, or send it as an email attachment. It works on lots of different systems: Windows, Mac, Linux, etc… anything with a web browser… and there NO application to install!

  • Problem-solving and Productivity - Because it’s so versatile, you can use it to address a wide variety of workflow needs. TiddlyWiki can make your information processing activities more effective by providing just the right combination of customization and “direct out of the box” features to simplify your daily tasks and processes.

"Own it like a document, use it like a website"

  • Just like any text document, spreadsheet, drawing, or image file, it’s YOURS. You can keep it private and carry it around in your pocket, or share via email or upload it to a file server when YOU decide!

  • Because it is built on standard “browser tech” (HTML, CSS, Javascript) and runs in your browser, it uses the familiar style of interaction you know from websites: links to navigate, fill-in forms (edit fields, checkboxes, radio buttons, selection lists, etc.), scrollable “pages”, copy/paste, downloading, etc.

-e

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#8

I gave it a thumbs up BUT do you think a word in the title other than programmable would scare off fewer people?

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#9

I think it’s very difficult to give people a meaningful overview for larger projects.

Almost every time I see what someone else has done with Tiddlywiki I think “seriously are we even on the same planet?”

Even with simple configurations and customisations we all head off in different directions - we use the same app but the outcomes are really quite different. Sure we all see the customised demo versions that people put out from time to time but they are often simple and contrived as are most demos nothing like looking at a wiki that has evolved over time and has hundreds or thousands of tiddlers.

To somehow sum up and capture what this might mean to newcomers or prospects in the longer term is like trying to predict what paintings will arise from emerging artists on the basis that they all use the same brand of oil paint and brushes. Perhaps people need to recognise the need in themselves first and then find Tiddlywiki rather than the other way around? I knew for ages I needed something but I hadn’t got a clue what it was just a vague notion that I needed non-linear note taking, I would say I found Tiddlywiki not the other way around - I was searching for a time because I was still working out what I needed.

The only way I understood or rather began to understand the incredible importance that Tiddlywiki would have for me was using it for research for the last two or more years and it’s still evolving now, structure is an ongoing task.

I would be fascinated to see a custom version of Tiddlywiki designed for an author of long complex novels (say Lord of The Rings), perhaps they would want all occurrences of the monikers for a particular character to be automatically linked back to a graph of tiddlers breaking down that character’s history, friends enemies, clothing preferences, key speech patterns, food preferences, family history and so on. Would they want multiple time lines displayed with links to tiddlers to give in depth detail. Would an author looking at Tiddlywiki for the first time now be able to guess what kind of wonders could be used to streamline the delivery of their next large tome? Word counts, stats? Just guessing - the list might be endless - we would have to ask an author to get more detail and then they might not know to begin with.

It’s really difficult to give a really well tailored intro description of Tiddlywiki because users grow with Tiddlywiki it’s difficult to see the potential or indeed know what is possible without investing the time and just using it and taking many many baby steps, it’s as much discovering about what your project is as the app you use to express it.

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#10

You’re right, for an initial “elevator pitch”, the programmability aspects are probably “too much, too soon”. Once they’ve gotten interested, then we can introduce the programming abilities as an advanced feature.

We could omit the “programmable” from the alliteration, and it would still be just much fun!

-e

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#11

Although not beginning with a P I thought Automation may be a replacement for programing.

I will post my description of tiddlywiki soon, recently inspire by the current discussion and hope others could make suggestions.

#12

When I hear “automation”, it seems like such an archaic, last century word, and I think of:

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#13

Curious,

  • Whilst I know the archaic examples you listed, may use the word automation, I am curious if you have a more modern word to describe the meaning of “automation” because I believe as a concept it is “fundamental” and hard to avoid.

Although Automation is defined in Wikipedia treats it as technological and shows its broader use in its disambiguation I would happily include the use of paper “to do lists” or “checklists”, as Automation, if not also a technology.

  • I may be tempted to define automation as “an artificial mechanism that aids in the completion of actions or operations by reducing physical or cognitive effort to do so”. It could be as simple as storing information, recording a state, machines or extending to complex algorithm’s, or robotics.

Actually I think I found out why you have the peculiar response to the word Automation, could you perhaps be thinking of Automaton - Wikipedia - “Au tom a ton”

  • Amazing the difference between Automation, with and without an “i”.
#14

What is TW when it is used to become a fully self-contained single-file (like a bottle garden or virtual computer) BASIC programming environment and source code repository? See the BASIC Anywhere Machine.

The “what it is” becomes hard to pin down when one starts looking at all of the things that can be done with it.

More info about BASIC Anywhere Machine if you want to geek out a little:

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#15

@Charlie_Veniot - Very true, perhaps a good start is to define what the core product is and then expand on that to say that with the addition of available plugins and customisation that the user (can?) do for themselves the sky is the limit - ‘Basic Anywhere’ being a great example.

Perhaps newcomers need that clear separating line between the core product on the one hand and the amazing things that can be explored when you include plugins in the picture on the other hand.

That also presumably reflects the history assuming that the version version of Tiddlywiki had considerably fewer plugins than we have today, I think sometimes explanations that follow the history, the evolutionary timeline of an app like Tiddlywiki may help people cope with complexity shock.

If we launch straight into the esoteric stuff new comers may just confused…the kind of overload when a person dives head first into a new technical pool with the aim of getting up to speed and productive quickly and then becomes overwhelmed very quickly because they are racing to satisfy their desire to get it up and running by yesterday and slam straight away into what seems like a brick wall of undifferentiated complexity, I think that (some) people want to find a solid root to grasp, they want to know what the core or basic part of it is first and then layer their understanding around that hub in stages.

“I thought you said it was a Wiki”
“Then you tell me it’s a non-linear knowledge base app”
“And now you tell me it’s something for programming in the basic computer language and I can’t program so I don’t think it’s for me”
“I’m confused, that’s the last time I believe the writing on the side of the can!”

Lessen the shock by clear delineation between the core product and the plugins? Maybe?

#16

I was referring to plugin capabilities in general, not any specific plugins.

Thanks everyone for your answers so far, keep em and the discussion coming. I’ll try to summarise the discussion so far on Monday.

@jeremyruston I’d very much be interested in your input here too, even more so after this comment you left in the Nah thread:

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#17

“TiddlyWiki is a software spork”

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#18

Who said anything about launching into esoteric stuff?

This is a “TW is …” “fill-in-the-blank” game to capture what it is, without overwhelming but also without trivialising it.

People will discard if the immediate impression is “TW is just this” when what I need is “that”.

To say TiddlyWiki is a “wiki” will leave the perception that it is just something like Wikipedia. Just a bunch of linked pages.

To say TiddlyWiki is a non-linear note-taking tool: meh.

To me, TiddlyWiki is a single-page browser application that can be anything in a spectrum that ranges from simple “post it note” or “grocery list” tool, to database for anything (enter data, query data, create forms, create reports), to a platform for creating just about any kind of application one can dream of.

So how to capture that in a simple and concise statement that draws anybody clicking to find out more?

Whatever does that (finding the right concise words is hardly my skill), then that’s what TiddlyWiki is.

#19

Who doesn’t love a spork? That’s awesome.

A spork with a heavy club at the end of it. Because it can clobber so many problems into submission.

#20

(I can’t help but wonder if we should reverse the whole question: Anyone asking what TW is is met with a CAPTCHA type display asking “What do you need?” and a field to fill in. The hard coded reply is, of course, always “Ah, that’s exactly what TW is for!” :stuck_out_tongue: )

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