Why is TiddlyWiki Beaten by Obsidian?

#101

I think Tiddlywiki is not beaten as a developer’s tool. It is fun to tinker your tool in TW. But when I come to the end of my abilities - that is when integrating js libraries is involved - and have to look at TW from the user perspective, I miss some tools and capabilities that would be basic to continue tinkering.

E.G. : I am still looking for a canvas like this one in the tool-that-shall-not-be-named

To achive something like that I miss:

  • Floating Tiddlers Or anything hovering.
  • Ties between objects.
  • Drawing lines on transparent canvass.

et ceterum censeo: we should stop discussing the name.

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#102

I don’t think tiddlywiki will be defeated by obsidian

I started out (6 years ago) with 500 efficiency software on obsidian and used obsidian’s relationship graph to show them, but I didn’t know some concepts of “clustering” at that time, which made my first attempt at obsidian fail, but I also learned to use markdown syntax

In obsidian, there is a switch in the Settings, the function is whether to save automatically, but before I, at that time I wanted to be able to precisely control the save, no software can do this

In tiddlywiki, I noticed it when I was organizing obsidian. At the beginning, tiddlywiki gave me the feeling of being as unfathomable as emacs, but once I participated in the high-pressure environment of a competition, I suddenly knew how to use tiddlywiki

Now I want to try out the new features of obsidian. When I downloaded obsidian, I had no idea about its nature. I learned that there are nearly 260 widgets in tiddlywiki from the forums and public knowledge base. For obsidian, I had to learn nearly 300 plugins from scratch to match the functionality of my tiddlywiki, so I was ready to give up, but I also recorded some basic obsidian tiddlers cards, about 10 of which looked like

#103

As I’ve said, the question is a bit moot from my perspective – I’m happy using a tool that is a bit obscure and has some more popular comparisons (notion/obsidian). While I wish I lived in a world where more people were interested in this type of software, that’s not really been my experience.

So the questions are only relevant in terms of these conversations around growing userbase and, as I’ve said, I think it’s a pretty limited userbase as it is.

But to pretend it’s not a limitation for some percentage of that potential userbase is ludicrous to me.

I will note however, to those that are interested in growing the userbase, my feeling on this is entirely due to the great community of hardworking people across time and space – so I am sympathetic to any desire to grow the userbase, to the extent I can be convinced that these potential users would be assets to the community.

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#104

My wife wanted to start taking notes and asked what I used. I showed here TW. However, to get things to work, we needed to setup things: TiddlyDesktop is not comfortable (no ‘browser search’), and running in Chrome has security limitations (I ended up setting a separate instance with security turned off and then had to hack things to make links open in my ‘standard’ instance). Also, there’s no out of the box backup, or support to work in different computers.

On the other hand, obsidian is an easy to run application that has everything in it, including sync for a small $ amount.

The clincher was probably its superior RTL support (probably because they use code mirror 6).

I like TW with its hackability, but it makes it more appealing to developer inclined people, that like to tweak things to their liking, not someone that just wants things to work with a basic flow (and maybe plugins that someone else wrote).

About hackability: A lot of it relies on learning a tidllywiki “language”. Whether it is filters, or macros/procedures (that require learning about variables, and scopes), or transclusions. I often times need to debug the underlying JS to understand why something doesn’t work. So people need to become developers in this language to really be able to customize TW.

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#105

Kind of related but feel free to start another thread if needed.
I do think that TW suffers from a lack of communication towards potential new users.
One idea I had for quite a while now, by looking at the substantial amount of community-contributed extensions to TW (plug-ins, tools, editions…) is kind of similar to what @jeremyruston et al. did during the “TW’s 20th birthday” event: giving the opportunity to community members to showcase their work related to TW hosting live events.
Kind of like the past “TW hangouts” but maybe less developer-centered.

#106

Maybe because after 20 years it has less traction and recognition than apps that came out only 3 years ago? That might be a hint there’s a problem.

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#107

Marks got a good point, and while a complete rework of the name would be a monumental task, it would benefit TW I think.

but, that being said- I dont think it would impact it That Much.

I think the bigger concern for new users is how steep our learning curve is when getting into TW.

sure, a new name would help with having people take it a bit less lightly, but no matter than name, if a user is unable to do what it is they expect a tool to do, they’re not going to want to use it unless like many of us, they welcome the challenge.

I’ve seen some seriously silly (heh, oxymoron moment) app names spring up for tons of notetaking applications, you can find quite a few good examples on the google play store or the Fdroid app store for android, and Im sure apple has its fair share as well.

however, I am still inclined to try using the application if the demo images and description piques my curiosity enough.

and if it serves a purpose that other things Can’t, then I would 100% keep it.

for me, nothing is better for journaling and taking notes than TiddlyWiki when working in the type of secure environment my work requires of me.

but thats just me 🤷

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#108

I do think there’s something in the onboarding as well – one of the “issues” is that Tiddlywiki is capable of so much… Undoubtedly that’s one of the very reasons why so many of us are here but, on the other hand, it makes it tricky for a new user to jump in and start playing with it… If they only have a vague sense of what they want, Tiddlywiki doesn’t prescribe a bunch of structure on them… And if they do have a better idea for what they want, they have to learn how to do it.

One of the reasons I love Tiddlywiki is that, as I work with it, I discover new tricks which change the way I model my internal thoughts about what I’m recording.

But that’s a really difficult ask for new users, lol.

Ive seen some talk about wiki versions that are customized to specific uses, which might have some helpful onscreen directions – something that could be training wheels for newcomers, but could easily be stripped out once they become more comfortable and familiar might be really helpful.

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#109

Right.

I’d go further myself.

TW is in it’s basic architecture of fundamentals is highly “agnostic” and “non-opinionated”.
From that comes “powers of application” way beyond it’s humble size.

I believe that originates in Jeremy Ruston’s (@jeremyruston [GENIUS]) deep early insights into the most open approach to both “make the internet” AND “make documents” under one very flexible process all-together.
May sound trivial or obscure–but the JR man fully understands Quines.
And the consequences of that are profound in TW.

(TW is a rare example of a fully functional quine.)

Right.

In many ways these already exist. Editions. Apps. Etc.
What is lacking is likely a way to bring it together in a way that outreaches in a consolidated way. There have been (some/many) attempts.

TBH, I don’t think it is either lack of will or lack of TW app. exemplars .

Rather, maybe, lack of a dedicated “marketing department” with requisite hours and understanding of TW’s potential “markets”?

Thoughts
TT

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#110

Likely a vero (true).

Intuiting your “hint” of a problem … erm … thinking on …

— I see TW is still young & FRESH (fresco e vibrante) —

[Unlike most of the softwareI I paid for :sob:, now deceased]

Caro, which type of Traction Engine could help us now catapult TW forward?

Just asking
TT

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#111

That’s why I recommend TidGi desktop, and I recommend people reuse its code to release App that works out-of-box.

Don’t recommend people to use Empty edition, even she is your wife. I recommend my wife use TidGi desktop, and she immediately starts writing, with auto-save, auto-backup, browser-search and whiteboard.

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