We Should Recommend New Users to Pre-configured TiddlyWiki Editions (Long post!)

Sorry to go off topic, but every discussion in here fizzles. Change the name of TiddlyWiki? Numerous discussions, but every time, Fiizzle. Create official editions? Fizzle. Numerous requests by various people for volunteers to update the documentation? Fizzle. I ask for someone to adopt Stroll (which I think of as an edition)? Chirping noises. Beg developers to figure out Timimi or at least get hold of the original developer? A mile long list of GitHub issues? More fizzle, etc etc

Everybody wants to create and show off their bells and whistles, but it feels like when almost any other kind of action is needed, things end in fizzling. I don’t blame anyone. The issue seems to be lack of leadership. Everyone seems to be waiting for someone else to take charge.

Back to the OP, just to explain, not to solve anything, the main issue is that beyond the window dressing of styles and themes and palettes, any talk of editions requires discussion of plugins and macros with their own homes, and random js files that people load in the middle of a thread somewhere here. I have documented a few things at Documenting TW — a non-linear personal web notebook. And others have curated many more things elsewhere. But when plugins are involved, then maintaining them and updating them becomes an issue.

I’ll share my “onboarding” experience:

For a long time I pretty much just used the Search function to bring up what I was looking for and didn’t really utilize any capabilities beyond that. It was only when I started my own small business and started taking more complex notes that I realized TW can do all sorts of things that I needed, and that’s what spurred me to look into wikitext and coding more. I don’t think I would have bothered if I was just continuing to use it as a place to throw words to look at again later.

I’ve thought about which of my friends would be good to introduce TW to, but for the actually techy people they prefer prebuilt polished apps, while non-techy people are very content with giant loose lists of words on a txt or in Google docs. Many people need a specific reason to need the level of customization and power that TW offers.

I think having a variety of Editions and Showcases is useful so people can understand that TW might fit one of their very specific needs. I also think that anyone who both has that need and is tech literate enough to do a little coding will end up trying plugins, swapping them out for other plugins, possibly even writing their own wikitext solutions. Exploration of what TW is capable of is probably the thing that keeps us here the most, because there are easier (more expensive/restricted, less custom) options besides TW in most cases. As such, having the Empty as a blank canvas to build upon is key, because people will need different sets of starter plugins depending on what they ultimately want to do with it. I think going out of your way to get Relink and Commander plugins is part of the process of understanding that TW has that kind of capabilities, and that this isn’t a ready out of the box type product, and that is the appeal. You can build it up however you want.

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We don’t need a specific version. Instead, we should use pre- configured versions to replace the blank one. There are already many pre-configured versions in the community. Now, we just need to recommend these versions to new users, rather than suggesting the blank version to them anymore. New users can fully choose a version that suits their needs. After selecting a version, they can also add other plugins. But please, stop recommending the blank version. In my opinion, the blank version is really terrible because it has nothing at all, and everything has to be reinvented. I don’t think new users have that much time, energy, or advanced skills. As experienced users, we are fully capable of configuring the blank version, and I can do it too. But please, think from the perspective of new users. They don’t have this ability.

Secondly, I’d like to emphasize again that plugins won’t affect the native functions of TiddlyWiki. I haven’t seen any plugins that reduce TiddlyWiki’s functions. So, why are you so averse to plugins? These excellent plugins have withstood the test of the community and are constantly being maintained. Why do you think they aren’t worth recommending to new users? Take myself as an example. I have 62 plugins, excluding theme plugins and language plugins. At least 30 of them are in daily use. Without these plugins, I simply wouldn’t use TiddlyWiki. Maybe you’re not a heavy-plugin user and only install a few that you need. But please, think from the perspective of new users. They need these plugins. If you really think new users don’t need so many plugins, fine. Please provide a version that you think is suitable for new users to start with. Don’t tell me you think the blank version is enough. That’s extremely absurd.

I know many people will search for and follow the community. If they don’t know which plugins can be used for batch modification, they can search on Google for “How to batch modify tiddlers in TiddlyWiki”, and naturally, they’ll find the TiddlyWiki community and get the answers they want. However, in China, you can’t use Google, and you can’t find any content about TiddlyWiki. They can’t even access GitHub repositories and the GitHub website. How can they download and install plugins? Do you think their English is good? Most of the time, they can’t understand the plugin documentation and will only find it a troublesome thing. In that case, they might as well use Obsidian. Almost every excellent Obsidian plugin has been introduced and spread in China, and many people do it voluntarily.

Taking China as an example is indeed very special, but I think the situation is similar in other countries. No one is willing to switch to English to search for a product they’re not even sure if they’ll use. If you think it’s their own problem to solve, that’s really arrogant.

When I was still a beginner, I constantly searched for TiddlyWiki plugins, reading almost every post on the forums and looking up TiddlyWiki in every community. I spent a lot of time on it—at first, it was exciting, and I dedicated a lot of time to studying how these plugins were written. Later, I ended up creating hundreds of my own plugins, which gave me a great sense of satisfaction. During this process, I indeed learned a lot. But as I became more familiar with TiddlyWiki, I found that I now prefer the blank version.

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I had the same experience as you, but I think new users don’t need to go through all that trouble anymore. Just like we don’t need to re - derive mathematical formulas, we only need to know how to use them. If everyone had to use TiddlyWiki in the way that mathematicians have to re - derive formulas, I’m sure no new users would stay. Moreover, you have a technical background, so you can transform TiddlyWiki more deeply. However, many new users don’t have a technical background. They won’t spend so much time tinkering around. I’m not satisfied with the time I spent tinkering with TiddlyWiki. I just feel like I wasted a lot of time on it. I didn’t want to become a technical expert, but I had to become one to meet my needs, and that was painful. But when we create plugins, I hope these plugins can reduce the pain of others and prevent them from wasting time searching for various plugin materials like I did.

A list of pre-configured versions is a good idea, and I agree it could save time for new users, but not at the expense of the vanilla version.

A pre-configured version can easily disappoint a user with different ideas or expectations. The vanilla version will nourish re-discovery and learning. TiddlyWiki is not what you think it is, - it is what you make it to be.

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Hi @dongrentianyu, I also agree that more editions would be helpful to ease the onboarding experience, but I also disagree that what’s known as “empty” should be “replaced” or “hidden”, as that’s exactly what some users want.

Here are just some thoughts to consider:

1.Expanding to user bases is important, but so is NOT discouraging the new users we ARE getting.
You seem to be implying that your recommended approach can only be positive, and that more is always better. This doesn’t consider that some people like “lightweight” options and that having a smaller set of features makes things less overwhelming and less intimidating. There are many examples in the software world of this. Some people prefer “Paint” to “Photoshop”, “Google Sheets” to “Excel”, and so on. People have different preferences, and so having a “Base” version is going to be preferred in a non-zero subset of people we’re trying to attract. Hiding the “base” version only hurts adoption of people like that. And, it’s worth mentioning that due to selection bias, this community may have MANY of those types of people, otherwise they wouldn’t be here :slightly_smiling_face: .

2.Empty is not that empty
You refer to the fact that there are few plugins loaded by default, and that the name denotes that it’s empty, but just to illustrate the point, there are a few features in it that frankly I’d rather be official plugins instead of core features. Does “empty” really need a bitmap editor? Who’s using this?? :laughing: How much smaller of a file could we have if this was split into a plugin? Going even further, note that some people are so passionate about a minimalistic approach that they have their own “editions” where the selling point is less features - like Feather Wiki which is only 58KB (Empty TW is 2554KB). There was also a post very recently about a wiki bragging about less than 2KB!! To that end, I might suggest “empty” be named “base” or “standard” or something less negative sounding.

3.Community Editions are not supported by the core team, which adds downstream risk
I’ve been using TiddlyWiki for a very long time (was introduced by this article on Lifehacker back in 2005). One of the hard lessons I’ve learned along the way is that this is a strong but small community, and relying on non-core plugins is risky. Many plugins, savers, and other things we come to depend on that are not core expire when the authors move on to other things. It’s sad, but part of open source software, this is basically all volunteer work. Timimi has been mentioned a lot recently, I’m still mourning Jed moving on from BOB, and there are other examples. If we’re going to heavily promote a community edition, we better have a robust plan of maintenance for the long-term, or we avoid bring people on and then having them go through a painful process of plugin abandonment. That’s why every couple of years I also try to bring up Relink in particular, I agree that is one of the plugins it would be most painful to lose. Not only because of it’s usefulness (and frankly filling a need that a naïve user would assume is core), but because it’s too sophisticated for me to rebuild myself. Something like Commander is very helpful, but that would be much easier to rebuild - in fact I use my own version that I prefer.

That all said, I agree with many other points you bring up, more editions, a better “core” way of managing community plugins (Community Links needs some love), and I hear you on the language struggles. I’ve recently moved abroad and this is a big challenge. Luckily there are small ways we can all contribute to get incrementally better, and keep this great little invention going.

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I agree, we need some pre-configured TiddlyWikis so newcomers can start with a few clicks. I have several pre-configured TiddlyWikis myself. I have developed a shell script to update these TiddlyWikis, and I clone my new wikis based on these editions.

These are like final products, and one can start without needing to install several plugins or themes.

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I think you’re drastically underselling the core. You get

  • A single page wiki, more portable than almost any other tool
  • A standalone system requiring only a web browser, with very few compatibility issues
  • A simple markup to handle basic and complex formatting
  • An editor toolbar so that you don’t have to remember all markup rules
  • A templating mechanism
  • The ability to use one bit of content in many places, without cut/paste
  • A built in database, with sophisticated querying tools
  • An internationalizable interface, with 34 built-in languages
  • A customizable search tool
  • An alerting mechanism
  • Many multimedia options
  • An easy-to-use journaling system
  • The quick ability to change color palettes
  • The ability to override any part of the UI you like
  • A robust plugin system that allows users to share customizations
  • … and much more

The above helps answer this. There is a great deal of functionality in the core, and hence in the empty edition. I don’t find it absurd at all.

I’m quite sure that you would find my personal starter edition far, far too minimal. And even still, you’d probably disagree with some of my choices. That is only going to grow with the more that’s added to it. I’m quite certain that I would not want most of your 62 plugins.


Given the situation you describe in China, I can certainly understand the appeal of the CPL I have only used it when I found a plugin that I could not install otherwise. But to me this still does not imply that the initial editions newcomers see should try to include as many helpful plugins as possible.

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Because it’s really, really hard. Because the philosophy is that all documentation must be perfect. As if it was code that could explode your nuclear plant. In my view, some documentation is better than no documentation. Improved documentation is better than impaired documentation. Ironically, we need a wiki system (like Fandom, like here’s one for emacs: Emacs | Sawfish | Fandom) so that documentation doesn’t have to lag.

And then, there’s this pile-on effect where people who were not interested in making their own updates pile on all sorts of demands of your own. Literally like, “You can’t fix this tiddler without fixing 36 others.”

So submitting documentation is a bit like building a ship in a bottle, blind-folded, in the middle of a punk rock festival.

That said, most of the documentation on TW is really good. Because TW is almost always backwards compatible, the documentation can be built on from year to year.

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Adopt? Is there a post about this?

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Hi Mark,

I have been trying to pawn it off since 2020 when we finished it. Yes, like two or three posts back then. I really don’t want to have to maintain it. I just wanted to experiment and create a TiddlyWiki that got as close to Roam as I could. I did, and it got a lot of attention at the beginning of the pandemic, which was fun. But maintaining Stroll up to date re its plugins and the most recent TW version is yet another distraction from important work goals when it works right, and downright frustrating when it doesn’t and people need my help. Which I often don’t even remember how to give.

Take it, simplify it, perfect it, monetize it, whatever you want.

Do you still use it?

I keep going in circles whether the Stroll way (linking, backlinking) or the Tagity-Tag way is best. The bane of too many choices.

I will answer by private message so we don’t continue to derail the thread. My only relevant point for the OP is that I consider Stroll an edition of sorts, though the comment came out in my rant about conversations fizzling out…

I just want to make TiddlyWiki more popular and attract more ordinary users. It’s not just about attracting those who are interested in the unique features of TiddlyWiki. Currently, TiddlyWiki is not very popular. Although it’s a product that has been around for twenty years, its popularity is far less than that of products launched in recent years. On one hand, this is because TiddlyWiki is an open-source and free product, and its promotion relies almost solely on volunteers. However, there are many excellent open-source products that can quickly gain market recognition. So, being open-source and lacking volunteer maintenance are just part of the reasons. Even from another perspective, many former TiddlyWiki users have switched to using other products. Why is that? For example, the developers of Obsidian and Logseq both mentioned getting inspiration from TiddlyWiki, but instead of adding plugins to TiddlyWiki to release the versions they wanted, they chose to develop new software. I’ve also communicated with other friends who used to use TiddlyWiki. They also think that TiddlyWiki has many functions but is too complicated. And a very crucial point is that TiddlyWiki doesn’t have the most basic functions they need. For example, the shortcuts and excellent editor plugins like those shown in the pictures I mentioned above. Without the presence and promotion of ordinary users, I think the development of TiddlyWiki will always lack manpower. As I mentioned above, in the AI era, ordinary users can completely transform into developers. They can maintain a specific version, and they can also promote new plugins and plugin updates, which are severely lacking in the TiddlyWiki community. On YouTube, there are pitifully few videos about TiddlyWiki.

Anyway, this is just my personal suggestion. I will recommend the pre-configured version to others, and this doesn’t affect others from recommending the blank version. Also, I’m not planning to submit a PR to modify the official documentation of TiddlyWiki. When a new user finds that the blank version is not useful, I will come forward and tell them that they can start with the TIDGI version, which is much more user-friendly than the blank version of TiddlyWiki.

By the way, I abandoned timimi and TiddlyWiki desktop a long time ago and chose TIDGI. Since then, I’ve never worried about saving and syncing TiddlyWiki again. If you have concerns in this regard, you can consider TIDGI. Linonetwo, the developer of TIDGI, is very active. So, you don’t have to worry about him giving up on this product for at least a few years. Even if he does, you can still continue to use it or export it as an HTML version and then switch to other methods.

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This is a very common topic, just like Linux and its distributions, Vim and its various distributions (which even led to the creation of Neovim), or Emacs and its distributions. However, when it comes to TiddlyWiki, I haven’t seen many well-maintained distributions.

The initial appearance of each distribution must have originated from someone’s personal configuration. When it gains more recognition and appreciation from others, the author is more motivated to maintain and improve it. Unfortunately, I haven’t seen this happening frequently in the TiddlyWiki community.

Based on the discussion above, there are still a lot of people who think the blank version is good enough, and naturally, not a lot of people are going to endorse and promote the configured version.

I do think there is widespread agreement that we should make public and promote multiple editions. Finding a mechanism for this that does not burden anyone too much is still a problem, though.

Most of the disagreement is about whether we should – or how much we should – deemphasize the empty edition. But it does seem like a very good idea to publicly support other editions.

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Right. I’d, myself, rephrase that as : “promote editions that are the most relevant to individual user needs”.

I think phrasing it that way makes clearer the necessity to explicity point to suited editions for purposes.

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To echo what has already been said I agree having standard editions is a great idea. I see a certain amount of parallel between emacs and TiddlyWiki. Both can be used out of the box without much customization or you can install preconfigured editions such as Doom emacs. You can use emacs straight out of the box and never write a single line of emacs lisp or install a single package. The same is true of TiddlyWiki.

I also feel this reoccurring topic is always going to be biased by people who choose to read this forum and reply on a regular basis. The idea for creating editions is a good one. It’s just not something that the core maintainers and community members are attracted to.