We Should Recommend New Users to Pre-configured TiddlyWiki Editions (Long post!)

Why Recommend New Users to Use the Pre-configured TiddlyWiki Version Instead of the Blank TiddlyWiki Version

This is a controversial topic, but I think it’s worth discussing separately. When I first started learning TiddlyWiki, I didn’t use the blank version. When I found that the blank version only had a language plugin and the core, with nothing else, I knew it wasn’t what I wanted. A few months later, I discovered that linonetwo had developed a software that included a pre-configured TiddlyWiki, and that’s when I truly entered the world of TiddlyWiki.

At the beginning, I was not familiar with many plugins. However, the Chinese community had a friendly atmosphere at that time, so I always asked various questions. For example, why a filter was written this way instead of that way, why a plugin had such a function, and how to modify the plugin’s content to achieve my desired functionality. Linonetwo and other community members often answered my questions, which allowed me to gain an in-depth understanding of these plugins.

I’d like to point out that TiddlyWiki is a completely offline product with very rich features. So, I’m not worried that plugins will damage my notes or leak my data. At least, I haven’t found such issues so far. Of course, there are indeed cases of conflicts between plugins, which we’ll discuss later. There’s no need to worry when using the pre-configured TiddlyWiki in TIDGI because linonetwo is also using it. Every time TIDGI is updated, he will update this wiki template. If there are plugin conflicts, he will fix them in a timely manner. Of course, you may not be satisfied with linonetwo’s configuration of TiddlyWiki, and that’s great. Because you can further modify his configuration and build the pre-configured TiddlyWiki into the one you want. This is exactly what makes TiddlyWiki so appealing. Everyone can have their own unique TiddlyWiki. But how to start? I think starting with linonetwo’s pre-configured TiddlyWiki or anyone else’s pre-configured TiddlyWiki is much better than starting with the blank version.

Next, I’ll mention some plugins to further prove why new users should start with a provided template rather than the blank version. First, they need to install the CPL plugin or other plugin sources; otherwise, they can only access official plugins and won’t be able to get other plugins. Here, I recommend CPL because this plugin source has collected and is still collecting most of the TiddlyWiki plugins in the world. It’s very convenient to download, install, and update plugins. I remember that before CPL, I had to track whether a plugin was updated by myself and then drag the updated plugin into my wiki. When I had several plugins to update, I had to open several websites for the updates. This really annoyed me. So, I recommend that any new user use CPL to manage their plugins.

Secondly, apart from CPL, there are some plugins that I think every TiddlyWiki should install. For example, $:/plugins/flibbles/relink. Without this plugin and its series of plugins, updating links would be very troublesome. Another example is $:/plugins/kookma/commander. Without this plugin, batch modification would become extremely difficult. And $:/plugins/oeyoews/tiddlywiki-codemirror-6, which I think is the best editor plugin for TiddlyWiki at present. Imagine a new user encountering these excellent plugins when they first start using TiddlyWiki. Wouldn’t they be more interested in learning about TiddlyWiki? If they are given a blank version, they won’t discover anything. They don’t know that there are these excellent plugins outside the TiddlyWiki forum and Google. (Moreover, more often than not, new users are less likely to actively search for TiddlyWiki-related content after they start using it.) TiddlyWiki is different from Obsidian. Almost every excellent plugin in Obsidian has very detailed documentation and introduction videos. Even in the Chinese community, many people spontaneously promote Obsidian, not to mention the commercial promotions.

No one will deny that TiddlyWiki has rich features. But before getting into wikitext and widgets, shouldn’t users first use TiddlyWiki to write down some notes and then start their TiddlyWiki journey? And I think the plugins of TiddlyWiki and the functions of TiddlyWiki itself are not in conflict. Take an example I recently implemented. I used the $:/plugins/oeyoews/neotw-homepage plugin and modified its default configuration. Then I learned some of TiddlyWiki’s own functions and finally combined them to achieve the functionality I wanted. When no entries are opened, page buttons are displayed. This is a feature that most note-taking software currently has, but TiddlyWiki always seems to be lacking something.

I don’t deny that some plugin functions are very simple, so simple that experienced users can implement them just by writing wikitext. But new users know nothing. Even users with higher education and a computer science background may not be able to quickly accept wikitext. When they face the blank version, it’s like facing a vast and undeveloped land. If they have to start from scratch for everything, they will definitely choose easier-to-use tools like Obsidian or Notion.

Some people may wonder why we need new users. TiddlyWiki has been around for twenty years, and the number of new users joining has always been small. Moreover, TiddlyWiki itself has a high learning curve.

I don’t agree with this view. The reason is simple. We all hope that TiddlyWiki can exist actively. This requires continuously attracting new users to join. When new users join, they will put forward new requirements, new solutions, and new promotion methods. The simplest way is to recommend TiddlyWiki to their friends and classmates to further expand the popularity of TiddlyWiki. The more outstanding ones can write some promotional articles, record some promotional videos, and even write plugin introductions and complete tutorial articles. These are all the benefits that new users can bring to us. And the most important thing we need to do is to keep the new users. The market for note-taking software is not large. Notion and Obsidian have attracted many users, and in China, many new users are attracted to SiYuan Note. Whether it’s open-source or commercial software, newly launched software always attracts new users. Newly launched software often has various fancy features. Once new users are attracted, they may stay there.

Let me take SiYuan Note as an example. SiYuan Note is a combination of open-source and commercial. The local offline editor function is open-source and free, and the commercial part is cloud synchronization. But you can also choose other synchronization methods. SiYuan Note has developed very rapidly. After several major version iterations, it is now stable. Many of its plugins have both Chinese and English introductions. Most of the developers of these plugins are Chinese. But I want to point out that many of them are not professional developers. Some of them had never even touched HTML, CSS, or JS before developing plugins. These are the new users we need. If we also have many new users who don’t know much about front-end knowledge, and after they start using TiddlyWiki, they learn these knowledge and use it to transform TiddlyWiki, and then further spread their solutions, wouldn’t it make TiddlyWiki more prosperous? In the era of AI prevalence, new users can completely become plugin developers because they only need to use basic HTML, CSS, and JS.

If we need new users to develop the TiddlyWiki community, we first need to keep them. And to keep the new users, we need to look at TiddlyWiki from their perspective. I’ve recommended TiddlyWiki to many friends, but most of them switched to Obsidian even after they learned how to use TiddlyWiki. They think TiddlyWiki is too complicated and that Obsidian is better. Since Obsidian is closed-source, they only need to combine its plugins and just ensure there are no conflicts between plugins. They don’t need to write code themselves. In TiddlyWiki, they think they need to write code like wikitext, which is too troublesome. New users can also do the same in the early stage of using TiddlyWiki. They can use the pre-configured version and then delete some plugins or install some other plugins to achieve their goals. It’s not too late to deeply understand TiddlyWiki’s wikitext functions when they can accept TiddlyWiki. If they are exposed to the blank version right from the start, I believe that apart from top experts, no new user will be willing to accept such a difficult challenge.

Finally, I still recommend TIDGI to new users or my friends instead of the blank TiddlyWiki version. TIDGI is open-source and free. It contains a pre-configured TiddlyWiki template and also has the function of automatically synchronizing to GitHub. If you want, you can make your GitHub repository public and publish it as an online website to build your own blog. That’s how I built my blog. You just need to install TIDGI, then create a new TiddlyWiki, select the local folder path, and you can start your TiddlyWiki journey.

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You have some good points here, but in the end, I mostly disagree.

We recently had a brief discussion on this in on this starting with a post in Why is TiddlyWiki Beaten by Obsidian?.

More than a year ago, there were some really great discussions on creating and maintaining community editions. Even though the discussion has fizzled, I think it would be the right approach: Offer a large number of editions useful for different purposes, with the empty edition always prominent among them. I imagined reinventing the GettingStarted text to look more like this:

Choose a starter edition for a personal journal. a public blog , a time-management system , a project planning tool, a documentation site, a link curation wiki, a recipe manager , or one of 38 other categories. Or choose to start on your own by clicking here to download an empty copy of Tiddlywiki.

(note: all links are fake! )

To me, that is a much better way to go. We wouldn’t usually try to create generic editions, but ones tailored to specific needs.

I wouldn’t object to keeping alongside those editions a collection of starter packs, which are less involved than the kind of editions mentioned above, but which might make TW more ergonomic for certain types of users. If I understand tidgi correctly, that is where I would place it. But I wouldn’t promote it above the empty edition or other such starter packs.

Interesting. I only use such plugin sources when that’s the only supported way to use a particular plugin. Usually, I visit that plugin’s page, find a link to the plugin itself and drag it to my wiki.

Relink is my most commonly required plugin. But these days, I still use it on fewer than half the wikis I create. Much of the time I don’t need it. So why bother installing it? I’ve used commander twice total; it’s certainly not installed by default. I really need to try some version of codemirror. I use the underlying library in many projects. But I’ve simply never missed it in TW.

So your initial list of indispensable plugins are all ones I don’t want installed by default. I certainly would not want to burden a new user with them without their understanding.

While I still have a personal and a work Notes wiki, neither of them has much to do with my common daily use of TW. I don’t think we would be justified in assuming that new users want TW for that purpose.

I guess I don’t share this. I think TW is great. I love to hear of new people adopting it. But I want people to choose it because of what it is, a quirky, powerful, infinitely customizable tool. Those who want a turn-key solution are almost certainly better served by other tools. To me, that’s fine.

I think the idea of sharing pre-configured editions of TiddlyWiki is a good one.

Maybe you’re familiar with this already, but there is a way to do this now using the “Templates” page on Tiddlyhost.

You can see that there are a number of TiddlyWiki “editions” there that are being maintained by community members. If you (or anyone) feels motivated enough, it’s possible to create an “edition” with the exact set of plugins and configuration you like, and make it available for people to find.

This is isn’t perfect, but maybe it’s an okay starting point. See also some ideas about making a subset of high quality “featured” templates.

We could talk more about how to make life easier for an edition or template maintainer, (and for plugin maintainers in general), but that’s probably a whole separate topic.

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Sorry to go off topic, but every discussion in here fizzles. Change the name of TiddlyWiki? Numerous discussions, but every time, Fiizzle. Create official editions? Fizzle. Numerous requests by various people for volunteers to update the documentation? Fizzle. I ask for someone to adopt Stroll (which I think of as an edition)? Chirping noises. Beg developers to figure out Timimi or at least get hold of the original developer? A mile long list of GitHub issues? More fizzle, etc etc

Everybody wants to create and show off their bells and whistles, but it feels like when almost any other kind of action is needed, things end in fizzling. I don’t blame anyone. The issue seems to be lack of leadership. Everyone seems to be waiting for someone else to take charge.

Back to the OP, just to explain, not to solve anything, the main issue is that beyond the window dressing of styles and themes and palettes, any talk of editions requires discussion of plugins and macros with their own homes, and random js files that people load in the middle of a thread somewhere here. I have documented a few things at Documenting TW — a non-linear personal web notebook. And others have curated many more things elsewhere. But when plugins are involved, then maintaining them and updating them becomes an issue.

I’ll share my “onboarding” experience:

For a long time I pretty much just used the Search function to bring up what I was looking for and didn’t really utilize any capabilities beyond that. It was only when I started my own small business and started taking more complex notes that I realized TW can do all sorts of things that I needed, and that’s what spurred me to look into wikitext and coding more. I don’t think I would have bothered if I was just continuing to use it as a place to throw words to look at again later.

I’ve thought about which of my friends would be good to introduce TW to, but for the actually techy people they prefer prebuilt polished apps, while non-techy people are very content with giant loose lists of words on a txt or in Google docs. Many people need a specific reason to need the level of customization and power that TW offers.

I think having a variety of Editions and Showcases is useful so people can understand that TW might fit one of their very specific needs. I also think that anyone who both has that need and is tech literate enough to do a little coding will end up trying plugins, swapping them out for other plugins, possibly even writing their own wikitext solutions. Exploration of what TW is capable of is probably the thing that keeps us here the most, because there are easier (more expensive/restricted, less custom) options besides TW in most cases. As such, having the Empty as a blank canvas to build upon is key, because people will need different sets of starter plugins depending on what they ultimately want to do with it. I think going out of your way to get Relink and Commander plugins is part of the process of understanding that TW has that kind of capabilities, and that this isn’t a ready out of the box type product, and that is the appeal. You can build it up however you want.

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We don’t need a specific version. Instead, we should use pre- configured versions to replace the blank one. There are already many pre-configured versions in the community. Now, we just need to recommend these versions to new users, rather than suggesting the blank version to them anymore. New users can fully choose a version that suits their needs. After selecting a version, they can also add other plugins. But please, stop recommending the blank version. In my opinion, the blank version is really terrible because it has nothing at all, and everything has to be reinvented. I don’t think new users have that much time, energy, or advanced skills. As experienced users, we are fully capable of configuring the blank version, and I can do it too. But please, think from the perspective of new users. They don’t have this ability.

Secondly, I’d like to emphasize again that plugins won’t affect the native functions of TiddlyWiki. I haven’t seen any plugins that reduce TiddlyWiki’s functions. So, why are you so averse to plugins? These excellent plugins have withstood the test of the community and are constantly being maintained. Why do you think they aren’t worth recommending to new users? Take myself as an example. I have 62 plugins, excluding theme plugins and language plugins. At least 30 of them are in daily use. Without these plugins, I simply wouldn’t use TiddlyWiki. Maybe you’re not a heavy-plugin user and only install a few that you need. But please, think from the perspective of new users. They need these plugins. If you really think new users don’t need so many plugins, fine. Please provide a version that you think is suitable for new users to start with. Don’t tell me you think the blank version is enough. That’s extremely absurd.

I know many people will search for and follow the community. If they don’t know which plugins can be used for batch modification, they can search on Google for “How to batch modify tiddlers in TiddlyWiki”, and naturally, they’ll find the TiddlyWiki community and get the answers they want. However, in China, you can’t use Google, and you can’t find any content about TiddlyWiki. They can’t even access GitHub repositories and the GitHub website. How can they download and install plugins? Do you think their English is good? Most of the time, they can’t understand the plugin documentation and will only find it a troublesome thing. In that case, they might as well use Obsidian. Almost every excellent Obsidian plugin has been introduced and spread in China, and many people do it voluntarily.

Taking China as an example is indeed very special, but I think the situation is similar in other countries. No one is willing to switch to English to search for a product they’re not even sure if they’ll use. If you think it’s their own problem to solve, that’s really arrogant.

When I was still a beginner, I constantly searched for TiddlyWiki plugins, reading almost every post on the forums and looking up TiddlyWiki in every community. I spent a lot of time on it—at first, it was exciting, and I dedicated a lot of time to studying how these plugins were written. Later, I ended up creating hundreds of my own plugins, which gave me a great sense of satisfaction. During this process, I indeed learned a lot. But as I became more familiar with TiddlyWiki, I found that I now prefer the blank version.

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I had the same experience as you, but I think new users don’t need to go through all that trouble anymore. Just like we don’t need to re - derive mathematical formulas, we only need to know how to use them. If everyone had to use TiddlyWiki in the way that mathematicians have to re - derive formulas, I’m sure no new users would stay. Moreover, you have a technical background, so you can transform TiddlyWiki more deeply. However, many new users don’t have a technical background. They won’t spend so much time tinkering around. I’m not satisfied with the time I spent tinkering with TiddlyWiki. I just feel like I wasted a lot of time on it. I didn’t want to become a technical expert, but I had to become one to meet my needs, and that was painful. But when we create plugins, I hope these plugins can reduce the pain of others and prevent them from wasting time searching for various plugin materials like I did.

A list of pre-configured versions is a good idea, and I agree it could save time for new users, but not at the expense of the vanilla version.

A pre-configured version can easily disappoint a user with different ideas or expectations. The vanilla version will nourish re-discovery and learning. TiddlyWiki is not what you think it is, - it is what you make it to be.

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Hi @dongrentianyu, I also agree that more editions would be helpful to ease the onboarding experience, but I also disagree that what’s known as “empty” should be “replaced” or “hidden”, as that’s exactly what some users want.

Here are just some thoughts to consider:

1.Expanding to user bases is important, but so is NOT discouraging the new users we ARE getting.
You seem to be implying that your recommended approach can only be positive, and that more is always better. This doesn’t consider that some people like “lightweight” options and that having a smaller set of features makes things less overwhelming and less intimidating. There are many examples in the software world of this. Some people prefer “Paint” to “Photoshop”, “Google Sheets” to “Excel”, and so on. People have different preferences, and so having a “Base” version is going to be preferred in a non-zero subset of people we’re trying to attract. Hiding the “base” version only hurts adoption of people like that. And, it’s worth mentioning that due to selection bias, this community may have MANY of those types of people, otherwise they wouldn’t be here :slightly_smiling_face: .

2.Empty is not that empty
You refer to the fact that there are few plugins loaded by default, and that the name denotes that it’s empty, but just to illustrate the point, there are a few features in it that frankly I’d rather be official plugins instead of core features. Does “empty” really need a bitmap editor? Who’s using this?? :laughing: How much smaller of a file could we have if this was split into a plugin? Going even further, note that some people are so passionate about a minimalistic approach that they have their own “editions” where the selling point is less features - like Feather Wiki which is only 58KB (Empty TW is 2554KB). There was also a post very recently about a wiki bragging about less than 2KB!! To that end, I might suggest “empty” be named “base” or “standard” or something less negative sounding.

3.Community Editions are not supported by the core team, which adds downstream risk
I’ve been using TiddlyWiki for a very long time (was introduced by this article on Lifehacker back in 2005). One of the hard lessons I’ve learned along the way is that this is a strong but small community, and relying on non-core plugins is risky. Many plugins, savers, and other things we come to depend on that are not core expire when the authors move on to other things. It’s sad, but part of open source software, this is basically all volunteer work. Timimi has been mentioned a lot recently, I’m still mourning Jed moving on from BOB, and there are other examples. If we’re going to heavily promote a community edition, we better have a robust plan of maintenance for the long-term, or we avoid bring people on and then having them go through a painful process of plugin abandonment. That’s why every couple of years I also try to bring up Relink in particular, I agree that is one of the plugins it would be most painful to lose. Not only because of it’s usefulness (and frankly filling a need that a naïve user would assume is core), but because it’s too sophisticated for me to rebuild myself. Something like Commander is very helpful, but that would be much easier to rebuild - in fact I use my own version that I prefer.

That all said, I agree with many other points you bring up, more editions, a better “core” way of managing community plugins (Community Links needs some love), and I hear you on the language struggles. I’ve recently moved abroad and this is a big challenge. Luckily there are small ways we can all contribute to get incrementally better, and keep this great little invention going.

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I agree, we need some pre-configured TiddlyWikis so newcomers can start with a few clicks. I have several pre-configured TiddlyWikis myself. I have developed a shell script to update these TiddlyWikis, and I clone my new wikis based on these editions.

These are like final products, and one can start without needing to install several plugins or themes.

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I think you’re drastically underselling the core. You get

  • A single page wiki, more portable than almost any other tool
  • A standalone system requiring only a web browser, with very few compatibility issues
  • A simple markup to handle basic and complex formatting
  • An editor toolbar so that you don’t have to remember all markup rules
  • A templating mechanism
  • The ability to use one bit of content in many places, without cut/paste
  • A built in database, with sophisticated querying tools
  • An internationalizable interface, with 34 built-in languages
  • A customizable search tool
  • An alerting mechanism
  • Many multimedia options
  • An easy-to-use journaling system
  • The quick ability to change color palettes
  • The ability to override any part of the UI you like
  • A robust plugin system that allows users to share customizations
  • … and much more

The above helps answer this. There is a great deal of functionality in the core, and hence in the empty edition. I don’t find it absurd at all.

I’m quite sure that you would find my personal starter edition far, far too minimal. And even still, you’d probably disagree with some of my choices. That is only going to grow with the more that’s added to it. I’m quite certain that I would not want most of your 62 plugins.


Given the situation you describe in China, I can certainly understand the appeal of the CPL I have only used it when I found a plugin that I could not install otherwise. But to me this still does not imply that the initial editions newcomers see should try to include as many helpful plugins as possible.

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Because it’s really, really hard. Because the philosophy is that all documentation must be perfect. As if it was code that could explode your nuclear plant. In my view, some documentation is better than no documentation. Improved documentation is better than impaired documentation. Ironically, we need a wiki system (like Fandom, like here’s one for emacs: Emacs | Sawfish | Fandom) so that documentation doesn’t have to lag.

And then, there’s this pile-on effect where people who were not interested in making their own updates pile on all sorts of demands of your own. Literally like, “You can’t fix this tiddler without fixing 36 others.”

So submitting documentation is a bit like building a ship in a bottle, blind-folded, in the middle of a punk rock festival.

That said, most of the documentation on TW is really good. Because TW is almost always backwards compatible, the documentation can be built on from year to year.

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Adopt? Is there a post about this?

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Hi Mark,

I have been trying to pawn it off since 2020 when we finished it. Yes, like two or three posts back then. I really don’t want to have to maintain it. I just wanted to experiment and create a TiddlyWiki that got as close to Roam as I could. I did, and it got a lot of attention at the beginning of the pandemic, which was fun. But maintaining Stroll up to date re its plugins and the most recent TW version is yet another distraction from important work goals when it works right, and downright frustrating when it doesn’t and people need my help. Which I often don’t even remember how to give.

Take it, simplify it, perfect it, monetize it, whatever you want.

Do you still use it?

I keep going in circles whether the Stroll way (linking, backlinking) or the Tagity-Tag way is best. The bane of too many choices.

I will answer by private message so we don’t continue to derail the thread. My only relevant point for the OP is that I consider Stroll an edition of sorts, though the comment came out in my rant about conversations fizzling out…

I just want to make TiddlyWiki more popular and attract more ordinary users. It’s not just about attracting those who are interested in the unique features of TiddlyWiki. Currently, TiddlyWiki is not very popular. Although it’s a product that has been around for twenty years, its popularity is far less than that of products launched in recent years. On one hand, this is because TiddlyWiki is an open-source and free product, and its promotion relies almost solely on volunteers. However, there are many excellent open-source products that can quickly gain market recognition. So, being open-source and lacking volunteer maintenance are just part of the reasons. Even from another perspective, many former TiddlyWiki users have switched to using other products. Why is that? For example, the developers of Obsidian and Logseq both mentioned getting inspiration from TiddlyWiki, but instead of adding plugins to TiddlyWiki to release the versions they wanted, they chose to develop new software. I’ve also communicated with other friends who used to use TiddlyWiki. They also think that TiddlyWiki has many functions but is too complicated. And a very crucial point is that TiddlyWiki doesn’t have the most basic functions they need. For example, the shortcuts and excellent editor plugins like those shown in the pictures I mentioned above. Without the presence and promotion of ordinary users, I think the development of TiddlyWiki will always lack manpower. As I mentioned above, in the AI era, ordinary users can completely transform into developers. They can maintain a specific version, and they can also promote new plugins and plugin updates, which are severely lacking in the TiddlyWiki community. On YouTube, there are pitifully few videos about TiddlyWiki.

Anyway, this is just my personal suggestion. I will recommend the pre-configured version to others, and this doesn’t affect others from recommending the blank version. Also, I’m not planning to submit a PR to modify the official documentation of TiddlyWiki. When a new user finds that the blank version is not useful, I will come forward and tell them that they can start with the TIDGI version, which is much more user-friendly than the blank version of TiddlyWiki.

By the way, I abandoned timimi and TiddlyWiki desktop a long time ago and chose TIDGI. Since then, I’ve never worried about saving and syncing TiddlyWiki again. If you have concerns in this regard, you can consider TIDGI. Linonetwo, the developer of TIDGI, is very active. So, you don’t have to worry about him giving up on this product for at least a few years. Even if he does, you can still continue to use it or export it as an HTML version and then switch to other methods.

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This is a very common topic, just like Linux and its distributions, Vim and its various distributions (which even led to the creation of Neovim), or Emacs and its distributions. However, when it comes to TiddlyWiki, I haven’t seen many well-maintained distributions.

The initial appearance of each distribution must have originated from someone’s personal configuration. When it gains more recognition and appreciation from others, the author is more motivated to maintain and improve it. Unfortunately, I haven’t seen this happening frequently in the TiddlyWiki community.

Based on the discussion above, there are still a lot of people who think the blank version is good enough, and naturally, not a lot of people are going to endorse and promote the configured version.