TiddlyDesktop or browser - differences/considerations?

#1

I’m still quite new to using Tiddlywiki and absolutely love it…thank you @jeremyruston and Community for all the work you have put in its development and support!

One of the greatest things about Tiddlywiki is how flexible and customizable it is, but because I do not have any real limitations with how I ultimately setup my own Tiddlywiki I am finding it quite the challenge as I try to make decisions around my configuration. :slight_smile:

I wasn’t sure whether to begin with the backend or how I interface with my Tiddlywiki…so thought I would start with (what I thought the easiest) making the decision between using a browser or TiddlyDesktop.

I’m hoping to understand any specific behaviours (eg. deal breakers, compromises, dependencies) that may move me in a particular direction. I have had difficulty though finding information that clearly details their differences.

  • Am I correct in understanding that using a browser or the desktop app is independent of any backend decisions (eg. singlefile.html , wiki folders, local or hosted options and all the available flavours in-between)? Does using TiddlyDesktop or a browser influence or limit my backend options?

  • Are there differences in functionality between TiddlyDesktop and a browser (eg. available plugins, performance, etc)?

  • Are there differences in functionality among the various browsers (Chrome/FF/Edge/Beaker/etc)?

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. Please add anything I haven’t thought of and if it would be better that I use a different entry point to make the decisions of how I build my Tiddlywiki.

Current configuration:
Win10 Build 10944 (desktop)
TiddlyDesktop v 0.0.15-prerelease.2
Singlefile.html
NAS

Desired configuration:
Win10 (laptops, desktops)
Android (phone, tablets)
node.js w ‘wiki folders’ served/self-hosted (w changes merging)

p.s. I apologize if I do not know Tiddlywiki well enough to have framed my questions correctly.

#2

@Jacqui perhaps rather than answer your questions directly I can make a few points that may help;

  • Tiddlywiki is always accessed in a browser, TiddlyDesktop has one built in, and as its browser is not used internet surfing it can have additional access to the local computer.
    • Because this is a limited browser it does not have the options and customisability of common browsers.
  • Tiddlywiki can be accessed in browsers at either file:// or Http:// addresses. if at a http address it follows that there is a “server” doing the sharing.
  • Servers can share single file wikis and/or “folder wikis” and they can just share them at a local address eg localhost 127.x.x.x. or on the network.
  • However you access your wiki you need to save changes see options below in https://tiddlywiki.com/#GettingStarted

So my quick rating of choices would be

  • Single file wikis : use Timimi on all my browsers for saving, ie open from and auto-save to file locations
  • Wikis with deeper interaction with my desktop eg running apps use TiddlyDesktop
  • To share wikis on the LAN and with other users, I tend to use Bob.exe that allows you to serve a farm of single file/ or folder wikis to yourself or on the LAN (unfortunately it’s missed the recent tiddlywiki versions)
  • There is now some nice webDav servers as well.

The above independence is true theoretically. But remember this is not a limitation since a TiddlyWiki can be moved from one platform to another.

A full internet browser will try to implement much harsher security as it has to survive the internet, but in most cases we have work arounds. Full internet browsers have more features and add ons etc…

Yes, Answered previously.

These differences are more about the browsers themself than tiddlywikis operation within them. Historically most users used FireFox because of the features but now Chrome and Edge (based on Chromium) are equally powerful.

  • Of course the beaker browser is about shared data

As you start out I would point you to tiddlyhost.com where you can host private and open tiddlywikis on the internet for free,

  • I would also suggest install Timimi on your browsers and use single file wikis at file addresses.
  • Once you are underway then consider TiddlyDesktop and server/node implementations for other use cases.
  • Making server choices only gets difficult when you want internet/networked TiddlyWiki’s with more than one editor.

I hope this helps
Feel free to ask more questions.

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#3

Hi Jacqueline,

Your initial decisions where right.
Your post and your questions are clear.

#4

I think that was a good choice to start with, since you don’t have to mess around with the different “saving options”. … With TiddlyDesktop – it just works :slight_smile:

As Tony pointed out, we did have to invent some workarounds, since browser vendors have increased the security restrictions for direct file-system access, in the last years. … Overwriting an existing file was only possible using a browser addOn in combination with a native-app like: Timimi. Or using an addOn only with the limitation to write files to the browser Downloads directory and their subfolders. … but

Some browsers (Chrome, Edge and Safari) have lifted those restrictions by enabling functions that allow us to directly overwrite an existing file, without the “Downloads directory” limitation and no extra native app.

At the moment it’s available for desktop browsers only!

We can overwrite a file in a directory, where ever we want. — With a little twist: The browser will have to ask the user “once per session”, if s/he allows, to have write access to the directory, where the wiki was loaded from. …

Since the technology is relatively new, it isn’t part of tiddlywiki.com yet. It’s a 3rd party plugin at the moment.

#5

Which NAS do you use?
Do you use it as a backup station, or do you use it as a media-server to “host” the wiki?

#6

Like Tones, I’d recommend checking out tiddlyhost.com

I’m a long time TW user and use tiddlyhost for almost all my wikis and have done so for many years (including its predecessor). This makes it accessible from all your devices but it means it is restricted from accessing local files.

#7

What do you do when you’re offline, or are you always online?

#8

Yeah, basically always online. If I’m offline it is just temporary (e.g a trip before I get to the destination) then I download the relevant wikis, but on the other hand I might not need access to the wikis while transporting myself.

Bouncing back the question to you: Why would one use a local wiki? Are people not almost always online these days?

#9

I don’t have an “all-you-can-eat” mobile data plan. Or even a 1G plan. I can’t really justify the cost. So my yearly mobile data (phone, text, data) is less than some people pay a month for cable (which I also don’t have).

But yeah, most of the time I’m near wifi. So it would be really useful if browser storage were a reliable offline option. But I don’t think mobile browsers even support it.

#10

Well, the word “mobile” hints at another crucial difference; I find cell phones excruciating to type on, and the displays are just too small even for just watching stuff for any longer time, and most pages adapted for mobile - including TW when it is displayed on mobile - are just bad UX, so I consequently barely use my TWs on my phone. I do almost everything on my laptop. I use it almost non-stop… which is probably why they only last 1.5 years for me on average… which is yet another reason why I want things online.

#11

Me too! But if I’m out shopping, being able to use my TW grocery list is kind of useful.

What exactly wears out? The only things with moving parts is the keyboard and (maybe) the hard drive. Get an inexpensive keyboard (usb, network, etc) and wear it out instead. The same keyboard can also be used with the phone, when you really have to do quantities of input.

My tests with browser storage and the Kiwi (mobile) browser don’t seem to be working. The browser storage is hard to understand because you don’t know when it’s saving and when it lets the background saver (e.g. tiddlyhost) save.

#12

Ok, it does seem to work with Kiwi browser. It’s just not very transparent. The tiddler is saved to storage (I think), but it still shows “unsaved”. Also, not sure why, but the storage keeps turning off auto-save.

#13

Mark, I am not sure this is at all true, however if memory constrained it may not be reliable. A lot of mainstream sites depend on this working. I will try and share a working example, I have being working on a multi-device solution which allows you to switch device for single file wikis so we do not save over changes on another device.

Another trick is to serve a wiki from the mobile device, so desktop access is browsing to the wiki hosted on the device when they are on the same LAN/WiFi.

Actually, I have many “local wikis” my answer(s) to this includes;

  • Because I can :nerd_face:
  • Performance
  • Near “air gap” security
  • Full and total data sovereignty/ownership
#14

I use a node.js TiddlyWiki and share it between my laptop and my smartphone with Syncthing. With Syncthing you can synchronize the node.js folder between devices if they are in the same LAN/WiFi. It’s then served on both devices, on Android I use termux for that.

In my setup I think it makes sense to use node.js because it’s easier to snychronise multiple text files rather than one html file.

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#15

IMO that is a good observation. I’m really not sure how easy / transparent / usable by a mortal Browser Storage is?

My point? Well if it is for individual use and you are into geeking around I’m sure it is kosher.

I just wonder if this could ever be reliable cross-browser online generally, reliably?

Just a comment
TT

#16

It’s actually not too bad once your realize what it’s doing. You make changes and the changes are being saved, without any notice, to the browser storage. Only the tiddlers that are changed are saved. If you close out the browser without saving, the changed tiddlers are added back in when you reload.

The use-case is to take notes say on a tiddlyhost instance while you are offline without fear of losing your work. And why would you lose your work? Because on Android, the Google/Android garbage collector (they actually call it that) will close down apps to recover working memory. This can happen any time without warning.

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#17

Thanks but they just stop working. I’m not clumsy or rough with them but all of a sudden something goes sour. Battery, screen, …anything. And I couldn’t use a separate keyboard because frequently I shift positions between desk, sofa, etc. Possibly they are worn down because I lift them in the screen or some corner etc. After some 15 years and piles of dead machines I’ve come to accept computers as ephemeral UIs to my data and just try to keep things in the cloud. But I am considering this, at least if it could get a Swedish keyboard!
OK, I shouldn’t hijack this thread more with this.