"Nah... not for me" - Why?

#122

Lots of good points. @TW_Tones – I’m sure some of my conclusions may be “off”, but I’m not making a judgement of the app since I’ve not yet tapped into all the possibilities.

Reviewing TWs appeal to a wider audience involves a bold relook at the history of how it’s been marketed – which is taking place in this discussion, right? I think there’s a pretty general consensus that there’s something here for every level of potential user.

From the little I’ve seen so far that offers a first look, you’re quickly steered into the deep end before you’re ready. The truth is, some potential users will never want to go there – and perhaps they don’t need to. However, currently there’s nothing I’ve seen so far that encourages a non-coding user that it’s ok to play-and-stay in the shallow waters — that TW5 will still deliver a useful note-taking environment.

@Mark_S – why? I suppose because I’m a bit weird that way. :upside_down_face: I’m retired. A bit old school and will keep a local copy of my data on an external HDD, which I replace every few years. Since I’d need to download backups of anything in the cloud anyway, it’s just easier to housekeep one data set.

Can be frustrating, but it’s something developers and IT support people just need to accept. I suspect that many people gravitated towards desktop computer use after being introduced to iOS/Android devices.
Remember some of the early editions of Apps - by independent developers? They were amazing, powerful, even though severely crippled by the tech limitations. Sadly many disappeared before reaching the next levels of hardware opportunity because they pitched over the heads of the median market. Many were bought out by larger orgs who offered and sold scaled down, formulaic versions, still in beta IMO, but unbelievably acceptable to the market. Why? Shrinkwrapped, instructions and support included.
I can’t think of an open-source app that holds it horses back. Why? I love the idea that there are no limitations, but is everyone ready for that?

#125

TW doesn’t fit the “Download, install, run” formula people are comfortable with. Nor does it fit the Google Playstore model. It takes a little more, and that’s the price you pay for something that can run exactly as-is on 5 different platforms and in at least 3 different modes.

I think the lack of either a download and run or a traditional SaaS offering is a turn-off for people who are new (though the non-traditional deployment model is what I was looking for), but I don’t think it has to be that way.

The reality is that TiddlyDesktop is close to what a lot of people would expect, possibly with some UX tinkering (“New Wiki”, “Open Wiki”, that sort of thing). Maybe the key is to funnel new users in that direction first, similar to what https://www.diagrams.net/ does.

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#126

Rightly so! We just want to “get on with it!” :slight_smile:

TT

#127

Right, for those seeking “apps” TiddlyDesktop (on desktops) is ace.
It behaves well as an application; even though it is just a Chromium powered front-end.

TT

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#128

That is a very pertinent comment IMO.

It is unfortunately true that searching for TW cross-platform does bring up some dead-ends.

Why? Because there is NO method to harmonise the multiple directions TW is going in all the time. The potential of TW is often opened and later abandoned. Those loose ends can cause confusion over time.

Just a comment
TT

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#131

So from what I see these appear to be the biggest points of failure:

  1. The language of the front page uses confusing terminology
  2. People are confused by TW being neither Software-as-a-Service nor a downloadable app
  3. The number of saver options is too large and creates an option paralysis
  4. Tiddlyhost is a recommended option but seems to not be the obvious way to go

First of all though:

I can’t quite quote specific examples or people, but from what I’ve read so far I did feel some resistance to change and disconnect from non-TW users in various threads. And as a “let’s do something about it” person I feel like most that happens is talking while I crave doing (and yes I know it’s much more complicated).

Some thoughts about the four issues:

  • #1 this could theoretically be fixed with a rewrite but, as I alluded in my Comparative Analysis I and in a comment … somewhere, I think TW front page should be remade from the ground up, because right now it feels like it’s primarily aimed at advanced TW users.
  • #2 and #3 are I think related. As a technologically literate person I find “Open this page and just save it to your computer” to be antiquated at best, and I think an average user may not quite understand how it’s supposed to work. I remember myself being confused how the savers work and having weird issues with the github saver, the number of options is just too large. There is a reason SaaS apps are doing so well - they’re easy to use.
  • #4 My case was probably atypical in that I had some preconceived notions about there not being any TW hosting (because of reading some outdated information on google groups), but I feel like the main reason is that’s another layer of trust you need to extend, since TiddlyHost is a separate entity from the open source project.

I don’t really know where I am going with this, but one thing for sure is I think it’s worth taking a look at Wordpress’s business model. They have an open source, free project + free hosting for said product + paid, tiered hosting for more features and capabilities. I think TW could fit such model really well.

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#133

Right.

The differential Wordpress modes matter. (They evolved over time.)

Why? (1) you can be freebie and learn the hard way; (2) you can go more commercial & get good help easily.

TT

#134

It is interesting.

I got very interested myself in the issue of “TOO MUCH OR NOT?”

In one way the welcome page is excellent in it’s liberality.

But I do think it an issue we can’t just have ONE method of “Universal Saving” bulit-in “Cross-Platform”.

As far as I can see we can’t.

A comment, TT

#135

But … it’s not that kind of software. Not. Not. Not.

We could say, use TiddlyDesktop. Then, for people on smart phones, use TD to host a wiki folder and browse it locally for your phone. But there’s a fair bit of configuration people have to do for that. Too much, maybe?

So, offer TiddlyDesktop for 3 platforms, Quine for (some) iPhones, and Tiddloid for Android. Then link to the other savers with the short message “Other options.”

Edit: In relationship to the idea to using TD to host for smart phones. I always have to use TD for a few minutes to remind myself why I never use it. In particular, at the moment, if you use a wiki folder, it won’t serve up external images in the app window. You can configure the host/port and serve it up in the browser, but what if you wanted to use the app window on your desktop, while allowing small devices to use it on the local net? (v14). And of course, there’s the thing that every single wikifolder you serve has to have its own port. And you can’t serve up stand-alone wikis.

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#136

I thought your reply v. interesting.

I kinda points to “what is the minimal effective to show?” (And only that.)

I need think on it, TT

#137

I’m about 3 tiddlers away from completing a Beginner’s practical introduction to using TiddlyWiki as a standalone app. AND…

It’s really been a challenge to NOT over complicate things. Now if anyone’s interested in this, where is the best place to share? Github? And be kind, I’ve written it as an absolute beginner myself.

My thoughts of late are that anyone landing on TW’s doorstep is either/and/or:

  • someone with the knowledge to understand the current support resources, and therefore would likely be fairly able to develop what they need using a variety of non-TW-related tools.
  • not willing to pay for XYZ for a proprietary solution
  • just love getting their hands dirty.
  • has tried XYZ and it doesn’t hit the mark

I still believe the “HelloThere…” page should be aimed at the LCD, beginner, with a not too obstrusive link to a fast-track for coders.

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#138

Very interesting discussion. Many valid points from Anakowi and Simon. I am a user since TW Classic 2.6. Used TWC 2.8.1 in some of my wikis until 2021. Converted my wikis to TW5 early this year. I am learning TW with Grok. This is my immediate request for the optimization of TW:

  1. Standardize the writing and delivery of plugins/themes/scripts/macros
  2. Do not shorten/abbreviate the code
  3. Include as many comments as possible in the code

Why am I asking this? Because going through the code of plugins/themes/scripts is the easiest methodology to learn, understand, and most importantly copy and adapt the code for our own purpose, especially for those of us that are not programmers and do not have enough time and/or skills to do so (include here all of us that are 55+ years old, barely used Fortran in school, and though Basic was not useful to learn).

The easiest way to learn something is by example. I would bet many new users won’t be discouraged if TW could be easily adapted to their own requirements by modifying existing code that is very well documented and open to all.

Alfonso

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#139

A tiddlyhost site and link from here, add to link.tiddlywiki.org once released.

Self documentation is a good idea, but to see other info and examples its wise to ALSO link back to the documentation - currently Tiddlywiki.com

#140

As this thread goes on a it rings the bell.

I think TiddlyWiki.com is ace.
And there is my thought.
It is the reference point for making & tweaking TW.

But, in terms of “products” out there “on sale”: well they don’t need to be anything looking like TiddlyWiki.com do they?

That is my point.

What are we wanting to promote FIRST: TW or specific applications built with it?

A question, TT

#141

Yesterday I very nearly reached… “Nah… not for me!”

At the very least, as a quick fix, the sections listed under “contents” on the official website could be organised more logically. It needs to start with:

Is TW5 right for me? — instead of HelloThere. Any tiddler that aims to “sell” the concept belongs here… and be given some marketing polish. The content here should include the “overview” videos that have been carelessly dropped into the Learning section.

Learning — needs to be broken down into 2 main sections, with a logical pathway (numbered):

  1. Getting Started – that is, getting the wiki working, no frills. Suitable for non-coders.
  2. TW5 concepts – sorted into 3 learning groups:

beginner – well explained for non-coders (who may never venture beyond this point);
intermediate – introducing essential syntax for widget construction and/or application);
advanced – onward and upward

All the other existing content (sections) need to be rewritten (scaffold learning style) – broken down to suit the 3 learner-groups.

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#142

I agree with this assessment. Looking at your audience here, I think you’ve got 2 major personas:

  1. Researcher-types who need to organize their knowledge
  2. People into selfhosting wanting to move away from existing tools

This is my 5 minute assessment, so I might be wrong.

Personally I mostly fit #2. Yes I struggled to collect various info across Google docs, text files, 3rd party solutions that didn’t stick (OneNote, Evernote…), but only after having my own server I started researching alternatives more in depth. Why? Because I am afraid of losing my data if I get locked out of my Google account for any reason, I like to be able to access my notes when offline, I don’t trust Google that much anymore (they are canceling services left and right), I was unhappy with content discoverability, UI, limitations of existing tools.

My own really quick (and subjective) SWOT analysis would be something like:

S:

  • You own your data
  • Extensibility
  • Large array of plugins
  • Strong foundational concepts (transclusion)
  • Search, tagging, no vendor lock-in
  • Free
  • Passionate user base

W

  • (IMO) Very steep learning curve
  • Outdated website / resources
  • No proper (or well-documented?) mobile support
  • No robust one-deploy setup/guide covering web, multiple mobile devices, desktop

O

  • Improve mobile support / guides or deployemnt templates
  • Common examples of a robust setup with synchronisation, versioning, off-line access
  • Modern website & started TW theme
  • better plugin discoverability
  • Highlight the amount of freedom Extensibility of TW brings and showcase most used/most popular ones

T

  • Loss of support
  • Shrinking user base

Just BTW I discovered TW by listening to the Selfhosted podcast (the host tried but later abandoned TW for their own use).

PS. I do really love TW and advocate for it to anyone who has a knowledge base management issue to solve, but due some of the above it can be a bit of a hard sell sometimes.

PS2: I was not convinced to commit to TW until I didn’t customize my instance to have at least some basic navigation/content tree/search shortcuts. For me saving Tiddlers into a what I perceived as a “black hole” and not seeing where it gets saved / filled under was definitely a change of mindset to which I had to adjust to. Now I trust TW with so much important information, it’s scary. :smile:

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Beyond empty.html a standard edition
Beyond empty.html a standard edition
#143

Thanks for your contribution @Andy_Filan

Did you know this means “Quick to learn”, learn lots in a short amount of time makes a steep curve, the alternative is a “long learning curve”, its not steep and takes a lot more time to learn the same amount.

  • ie Vertical axis is learning/knowledge, horizontal access is time.
  • What did you mean?

I would contest a number of your assertions as not true “in reality”, but it does not matter because they were true for you in practice, thus they need to be addressed.

I presume this is because you downloaded the empty.html ?

  • I think we should have a standard edition which addresses these common negative experiences out of the box.
  • empty.html has it place but more for expierenced users to start with a minimum configuration

Please list, what you found, resolves these Getting Started Issues. Along with mine;

  • Contents tab
  • Current session history tab
  • Menu bar with versions of key sidebar tabs such as open / History / new today
  • A favourites or tiddler bookmark tool
  • Additional features on the tag drop down including create sidebar tab with list or items so tagged.
    • ability to subfilter eg tab of “todo not done”
  • Make additional buttons visible out of the box such as the more dropdown buttons
  • A few quick references and links to doco for particular issues eg date handling

More I am sure?

#144

This is what I meant (source):

A “steep learning curve” means something may be difficult or challenging to learn at first, but that once you have gained the knowledge needed, everything clicks into place and makes perfect sense.

And I think that describes my experience well :slight_smile:

presume this is because you downloaded the empty.html ?

As a selfhoster I started with the docker container. I tried 2-3 and currently are using this one: nicolaw/tiddlywiki:latest

I really can’t remember what starter template I used. I still use the TW folder instead of one file though.

Here are a screenshots of my plugins and how my UI looks like now:

744×1218 55.3 KB

1010×654 31.8 KB

I might have uninstalled some after I’ve gotten used to other ways to explore my wiki, but these are the currently installed ones (I definitely don’t use all, e.g. I don’t use the dailynotes one).

#145

Okay. I have seen this thread, and threads like it, for so many years. I am getting tired of this.

So here is a prototype landing page. TiddlyWiki — a non-linear personal web notebook

I am not so interested in the feedback of long-time users. I am much more interested in feedback from people like @Anakowi and other fairly new people. If you had come to TiddlyWiki and it looked like it does in the link above, would this have increased your openness to working with it? Is this something we should strive toward?

  1. Simple language
  2. Short bursts with minimal content in each section so as not to overwhelm people
  3. Hand-holding in a specific sequence
  4. Little or no need to scroll down to find the initial information
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#146

Sorry, this is not related to the topic, but the comment about the confusion over badges made me think of this scene: We dont need no stinkin' badges a la "Blazing Saddles" - YouTube