As stated previously code may still need validation or testing when Posted here. Images are subject to review and taste but are no longer breakable, just asethetic. Although it may be fair to declare its source.
Gosh, my post really didn’t hit the right tone [and EDIT: your post seems to have been edited, so that it no longer shows the words I’m quoting?]. (Despite the wink and gesture of crossing out the most judgmental phrase, I clearly erred on the side of sounding sharp.) Shame is certainly not the point.
Thanks for offering these details. They’re very helpful.
For what its worth, possibly not much, but here’s my view on this:
Images: I think this is a hopeless battle and a waste of time to fight it. More or less ALL images will be AI generated soon.
Code; basically the same argument. Please just ensure that if you post here, don’t waste other peoples time, just like you shouldn’t post your own code if it is not properly curated and on topic. AI is already better than ALL of us here at coding (but one needs access to them and to know how to prompt them properly)
Posting in general: If anyone nautrally posts nuggets of knowledge - great! And if anyone is really a moron but who still post nuggets thanks to AI - great!
Bottom line: AGI→ASI→Singulartiy is approaching like a train and we cannot do anything about it. It’ll be hell or heaven. I’m scared, but let’s make the best of it. If you can make a great image, or macro, or whatever with AI, of course you should go ahead.
Just in case anyone here is not following how fast AI is developing, here’s a video from one of the channels I follow. As you can see, it is simply an (embarassing) mistake to bluntly say “AI images are bad”.
Actualy I know a few people who produce images professionaly or passionatly and I think they will still do it and produce results machine learning will not in a hurry.
- I welcome the opportunity to put more imagery into what I do.
I am confident all we have for now is some machine learning and we are a lot further from this than we think. Although this does not mean we will not find problems in society as a result of what is here and comming soon.
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Did someone say “AI images are bad”? Are you attributing this claim to me, in particular? Images don’t have moral character; decisions do — and moral character never reduces to the binary good/bad, on my view.
Of course images aren’t really generated by “AI” anyway… they’re generated (upon indirectly-paid request) through neural-net circuitry which digests1 and churns through vast input of images not generated by AI (and eventually will be re-digesting prior output of its own kind)… And this technology can be leaned on to greater and lesser degrees, with greater and lesser skill, and greater and lesser transparency about the role of this tech.
Of course there’s more and less interesting use, more and less responsible use. Clearly, at least two of our maximalist version-banner entries have engaged in a process that takes considerable initiative, time and tinkering, and the results (quite different as they are, despite being similarly maximalist in detail!) reflect on the image-tech users as individuals to that degree.
My point is not to “shame” (as it apparently came across to @stobot above) in a blanket way, but to ask for transparency and reflection.
And also, I admit I’m trying to read the room.
I’m a bit of a geeky luddite; I enjoy working with graphic design tools such as bezier curves (including the fonts built on these), gradients, compositional shape-play, and alpha transparency effects. “Such quaintly pre-2022 stuff!” people may now say.
In response to Jeremy’s suggestion (that it would be nice for the banner to include more than typography), I’d like to put more effort into my germ of an idea, but I’m not sure it’s worthwhile…
Over the years, I’ve put many hours into generating candidates for version-banners, and I don’t regret any of it! I have cheered on dozens of entries that have left my entries in the dust… I think this site dedicated to version banner contest entries shows that enthusiasm.
But entries like pmario’s image don’t just leave me in the dust the way a faster runner would; they take the wind out of my sails, so to speak, the way a flash flood would.
I feel a bit as if I’d be showing up to a coffee-house with my acoustic guitar, while others arrive with an amplified app that instantly transforms their voice into pitch-corrected Stevie Wonder or Taylor Swift in real time, with an automatic beat-box over an infinite array of popular chord-changes at the press of a button.
It’s not that multi-track beat boxes and voice-transformation apps (or people who use them) are intrinsically bad, or that there’s no skill inovlved in using them well. It’s just when the environment is so amped-up, it no longer feels like the place to show up with an acoustic guitar and a trained-but-mortal voice.
Of course, this is just a version-banner contest. It’s not a Big Deal. But our discussion is a microcosm of the discussions happening all around us. 2
- … digests and finds patterns in this vast prior human input… by harnessing the deposited-underground solar energy harnessed by organisms that came long before us. (Yes transportation and electric technologies have already been burning up this reserve of ancient organisms’ metabolic surplus, but “This isn’t simply the norm of a digital world. It’s unique to AI, and a marked departure from Big Tech’s electricity appetite in the recent past.”)
- Why send a selfie that shows your warts, if you can send an enhanced one? Why write your own love poem when you can tap into curated algorithms of seduction? Why learn a language with your ears and mouth when you could have an instant bidirectional translation app? Why learn to cook when your spouse wants the AI-robotics kitchen gadget designed to serve you fusion Mexican-Indian culinary delights on cue, based on your Data-Distilled Taste Profile? Why should we all bother setting up a community poll as asking participants to look at entries and vote on them, when the entries could simply be submitted to a super-smart evaluation engine to decide instantly which is the best one?
Is democracy, too, not bumblingly inefficient, quaint, naively un-ambitious?..
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I’m going to choose to disengage on this topic and hide it as it’s taking away my enjoyment of this community. I appreciate you all, and wish you best of luck in your goals.
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@Springer , nope not at all particularly to you. Since you ask, I was triggered to post after reading this unconstructive criticism but also the general gist of negativity towards AI images. I’m not saying they’re necessarily “good” - I’m saying we should embrace the new world because we can’t escape it.
Specifically, when it comes to banners here, I side with @Mark_S when he says
If AI is “slop”, then why is it necessary to put one’s thumbs one the scales? Surely the results will manifest in the voting.
Now, of course, this doesn’t have to take away the joy of tinkering. Making images in photoshop (which, by the way, totally killed the hand-made-drawings-industry) or clinking on a piano (which, by the way, totally killed the harpsicord). I actually think that in an ASI world, tinkering is pretty much what we’ll all do, for the joy of it.
Yes, a concern - but I expect AI to solve the energy problem within a few years. (It is a purely technological matter and we have failed thus far because we’re not smart enough!)
Why do you pick up your acoustic guitar when you can just turn on spotify? Why write a love poem when Lord Byron already made it better even before you were born?
I have thought a lot about what an ASI world will look like (or, I should say, I’ve been reading and listening to hundreds of experts on the matter over the years). While I am afraid of the uncertainty (especially the transitional period to such a world) I find great comfort in that much - perhaps even most - of what we humans do is not really done with the intention of producing something of value. It is typically done just for the intrinsic joy (or relief) of doing it. I think this will continue.
Right.
IMO IMAGES asked for to promote TW SHOULD communicate any LOCAL solution well.
It matters.
More likely me?
TBH this discussion illustrates that concerns on AI imagery are not trivial.
They reach way beyond TW itself.
On the other hand I have no interest in bogging down TW discussions in the philosophies of the relation of ideologies to actions. Relevant as they are.
QED, TT
Who is saying that here? To say, more modestly, “most AI is weak” is to affirm that the slick outpourings very evident are a gambit rather than a realization. Seems true.
You are right in questioning.
But any blind acceptance that ''AI is good" won’t do.
Are you saying that?
Get your case studies in gear broheim to make the point you haven’t yet.
Best, TT
So I go to tiddlywiki.com to see what the last banner looked like, expecting it to be on the landing page, and I have to do a search for it.
Once again, especially given that it’s not part of the front door of TiddlyWiki, why not let the voting speak for itself?
I think both you and Jeremy used pejorative terms in describing AI. But I could be hallucinating.
I was hallucinating when hallucinating wasn’t cool.
I see it on the splash screen, but blink and it’ll be gone:
I think creating banner images is hard. At least for me. I was lucky, that the last one got selected.
We had a clear “change log”, which pointed out, what’s new. Some of the changes where visual.
So making some screenshots was easy to get it started. I did create a similar collage many years ago using Gimp. I could remember some steps of the workflow and the others I had to look up in the internet.
With the current release, the only visual improvements are very minor. We removed some bugs in the current palettes, which still have a lot of room for improvements.
Then there is the “transition” from v5.3.7 to v5.4.0 – So v5.3.7 is probably an “end point”. – But How do you “visualise” the end of a journey. I did like @Christian_Byron idea with a sun-set or sun-rise.
So I thought about several journeys I made, where I saw both beautiful sun-rises and sun-sets.
a) We had an apartment in south France, with a gorgeous view to the sea. There was a street that meandered along the coast line from the left to the right until it could not be seen anymore. That was the first image in my head, where it probably is more beautiful than it was in reality 
b) I made a trip with some friends on a sailing boat, in Greece, visiting the Ionian islands. A lot of sun-sets, sun-rises. The finest food and something to drink. And finally the most relaxing and beautiful way to travel, sailing with the wind. (and motor, if there is no wind 
– or the rest of the crew puking, if there is too much wind 
With these two memories in mind I started to create a fictional scene as a prompt for the LLM.
That’s the initial prompt
You are a photo artist.
I need a photo-realistic image with 560 x 315 pixel
It should be png format
Your position is in a Mediterranean setting.
You are on a rocky coast-line
In the left side of the image is a small village
5-10 houses with flat roofs
they are painted white
windows and doors are painted some blue and some orange
to the left of the village is an olive hain
there is a main street coming out of the village which leads along the whole cost line
the coast line goes from the middle left of image, down to the center and up again in the far distant right.
The rest of the image is sea
The sea is calm only small braking waves are visible
They come from the top left and go towards the coast line
There is a sunset in the distance top right of the image
Very far from the left, there comes a container ship driving towards the sun
the container ship is far away so it is small but visible
In the center there is a sailing boat docked at a small footbridge
The sailing boat is the main focus point of the image
The sails are halve retracted, but still visible
The initial image was this:
Not exactly what I had in mind, but looked good and contained all the elements that I did describe. It could be a photo I made somewhere in Greece.
But then “the journey began”. – I think I made a mistake. I did add the following text, instead of refining the full prompt.
That's nice already, but the sailing boat should be a little bit more in the deeper water.
The street should go with a small bridge from the left side of the image to the right side and out of the image.
the boat should be docked on small dock, a bit closer to the vilage.
The ship should have full sails, but it should already be docked.
Most of the new text was ignored, but I did like the small dock on the right side.
As you can see, some of the houses disappeared. The boat was a bit bigger, which was not intended.
An other refinement
no. the sailing boat should have full sails all of them.
It should be docked an a small dock that leads from the street near the vilage into the see.
At the bottom of the image there should be an ancient bridge from the left side of the rocks to the right side of the rocks.
the bridge should be a bit more at the bottom at the image, but ist should still be visible.
The ship should be a bit more in the center of the image, but it should still be the main focus point.
the dock goes from the street near the vilage into the see.
the ship is docked at the small dock
Result:
I did like the new bridge in the front. But the image becomes way too noisy and more houses are gone – Full sails - docked - What a stupid idea. More houses gone. No orange elements anymore.
I wanted to start a new → but the LLM did not forget the earlier context. 3 more images and “corrections” and it got worse. I managed to completely mess up the bridge in the front, which was completely my fault. As you can see in the last image, the bridge comes from outside and leads into the water. But I did like the upper 2/3rds of the image.
Final request:
Take the photo and convert it into a semi realistic oil painting
Not bad. → Starting Gimp → Cut the bridge → Add the version number → Submit.
Why the long post?
I did read this thread and thought more background is needed. Now with the background, there are some questions which I want to ask:
Q - to myself: Could I have created the “end result” on my own?
A: No. I can not paint with oil and I do not know Gimp enough, that I could create that scene with Gimp alone. I could have used some of my own “real” images, but manipulating them in a way to get this result, would have been impossible for me.
Q: Is the “process” that lead to the image a “creative process”?
Q: Is the result worth to be accepted as a contribution as a banner image?
Q: Does it “visualise” a start or end of a journey?
I have to say, it was fun, to create it and I do like the scene. For me it’s beautiful and that’s why I did share it.
Have fun!
Mario
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I think what we’re doing here is engaging in the kind of deliberative reflection that can make for a meaningfully informed community vote.
Also, I’m interested in learning more about whether — if I were to put more hours into developing my graphic ideas — a significant number of people are still interested in that. I’m not looking for a guarantee of winning. I don’t really care about that. I’m looking to understand whether the majority now share this appetite for big-data-fueled heavy images, and whether the majority here think the details matter — in terms of of where and how this tech is being integrated.
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I can only speak for one person — myself — but I appreciate your ideas and your work and I hope you continue to pursue them!
And in general, I would greatly prefer to vote for a banner that’s not the product of machine learning. While I appreciate the thoughtful choices behind the AI-assisted submissions, I don’t think incorporating AI in our branding sends the right message about TW’s priorities; it seems at odds with the idea that users have full control over their content and the ways it is (re)used.
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I’m not much of a visual person.1. So I generally only half-heartedly pay attention to the banner competition threads; they simply don’t matter much to me. But I do read them, and sometimes make my preferences known. Almost always that comes down to a preference for simplicity. While @pmario’s ship is pretty, and @stobot’s trains are impressive, I prefer the simpler ones such as yours, and the ones that speak to something about the actual changes, like @pmario’s 5.3.6 version, and both of Xrizzy’s offerings. I was happy enough with @Christian_Byron’s cat looking into the sunset. I’m not experienced enough with AI images to recognize what @TiddlyTitch seemed to grasp right away, that this was AI output. That sours me a bit, but doesn’t disqualify it in my mind, even though I find myself significantly opposed to the current crop of AI.
So yes, I will absolutely enjoy seeing the sorts of things you create. And for a first approximation, simple is better in these banners.
1Really not at all. For instance, when I read, I do not get an interior image of the scene. I can tell you relationships: this is to the right of that, but further back or both of them look scared, but I don’t “see” it, even in my mind. Since my mother and one of my brothers share this, I assume there’s some genetic oddity at work. But I’ve never really investigated.
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3 posts were split to a new topic: Aphantasia - the inability to voluntarily visualize mental images
Wow. Could you do the Harry Potter thing, and make old pictures with friends and family come alive? That might be worth spending $60 one month.