Discourse on Discourse: The transition period should be long

Meta
#21

The design of Discourse is such that it auto-saves drafts continuously. I have never lost content with Discourse across a number of forums I’m part of.

You are correct that it’s just one server. Mostly more users at the same time would create load. It will be interesting to look at month 1 stats in mid September.

More content can slow down specific functions — search is one I can think of.

A number of people don’t want to tie themselves to Google in any way. You may be OK with it, but not everyone is.

My personal view: I’m not locked out from GG, but the majority of my contribution time is mobile and web first. Since the mobile interface is terrible / posting doesn’t seem to work for me, I just haven’t participated for years. You may not care about me participating, which is fine, but it’s a real thing, as is a distaste for Google accounts.

Discourse supporting web-first and email interactions, as well as a great mobile interface and a wide range of login options, seems a good fit. I can’t speak to the pure mailing list mode interaction.

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#22

Right! The issue is that in migrating to Discourse we are mainly concentrated, Shirley, on talking about helping “them that are on GG already” :slight_smile: .

In the OP for this thread I was mainly focused on “transfer” issues. Particularly I wanted to be sure a naive user could cope.

What has become interesting is the techno-cultural smorgasbord of Discourse entered the discussion. FYI, my focus has shifted slightly towards “is Discourse simple enough?” for the itinerant users?

It is TRUE Discourse is rich in possibilities. At the same time, I have to comment, that getting to the bottom of issues is quite a lot of work. For instance …

  • WHERE is the definitive guide to Markup?

  • WHERE is the documentation of the URL posting method?

I cannot yet say it is an easy place to master. But for OUR needs mastery of the forum saga needs be simple, not requiring yet another level of stuff to master. Learning TW is enough already. :crazy_face:

Thoughts
TT

#23

Discourse might have some advanced features, but this doesn’t in any way affect how easy it is for new users to post. It’s at least as easy to make an account and post on Discourse as it is on Google Groups.

I believe I linked to this thread documenting the URL method in your post on that topic. Here is a thread on the Discourse markdown.

I found both of these with a normal google search, I really don’t see how it is a lot of work? IMO using https://meta.discourse.org to provide documentation works much better than more ‘traditional’ documentation.

I don’t understand why you view ‘mastery’ of the forum as important? If there are advance features that you want to use then of course learn how to use them, but I think many users will be happy with the basics.

Hopefully none of what I have said comes as rude or dismissive - sometimes it is easy to project the wrong tone when disagreeing with someone online but that is definitely not my intention.

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#24

ditto. In over four years of daily use.

2 Likes
#25

Discourse, IMO, is OVER COMPLEX.

The MAIN LIST of posts is ALREADY ADJUDICATED.
It Is an HIGHLY OPINIONATED system.

It DOES have many features that are worth having.
BUT it HIDES the degree to which it is OPINIONATED.
For OUR type of group, for our health, we need to get EXPLICIT about what it does.

As a refugee from the Google Group I MISS ALREADY the simplicity of LATEST FIRST, READ or NOT READ. DONE. Nothing more.

Discourse is not that. It is a complex system where THREADING becomes very complex. And following someone’s thoughts over time becomes much more difficult.

TT

#26

I had never used Discourse before, so I knew it would take some time to get used to.

I still find it a time consumer compared to reading the GG everyday for many years.

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#27

TT,

I would argue actually what ever complexity Discourse has is appropriate for the complex beings and ideas, it is want to “hold”.

I would also suggest, as someone who has investigated solutions for; social media, enterprise social, forums, messaging, online collaboration and more over the years that Discourse would not be a complete solution if it did not have every one of the features it has, and that these “features” are common to most “competent” solutions.

To conclude the complexity that exists in Discourse exists as a result of need, and learning to use discourse is not a one off, but includes reusable knowledge that can be applied to most other similar solutions.

Perhaps a mapping of gg and other forums to Discourse would be helpful for the transition, however I do feel it is a matter of “taking the red Pill”.

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#28

I am not against adopting Discourse per se. Simply commenting that it’s very richness/complexity is, in some ways, a bad thing. The last thing I want to be doing is slog over using a forum that requires ongoing research to fathom fully. The energy I have for TW should be for TW, not mastering schematics to play “smart” on a forum site.

And I am NOT convinced yet that for beginners Discourse is anyway as simple as the GG.

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#29

I don’t know what you mean by “opiionated”. Do you mean the fact that it encourages various forms of up-voting?

Maybe I was never using GG to its full potential. You can sort Discourse however you want – a list of ways is provided at the top. Click on Latest, Newest, Unread etc. You can also click on the other exposed fields to sort by them however you want.

I don’t see the complexity. It seems more transparent. I can see at a glance how many unread posts are in a thread and the icons for all the participants. The actual threading seems to be nearly identical to GG – go to a thread and follow the posts, one after another.

So, ELI5 – what is more complex about Discourse?

My main concerns are technical and financial. Can we afford it? I guess if it doesn’t worry Jeremy, it shouldn’t worry me. Will it hold up when we have thousands of threads extending over months, given that it is riding on a single server? Time will tell. What if Boris gets hit by a bus? Do we have enough know-how to keep things going? Oh well – I’ll let someone else worry about that …

#30

Just a general observation about this discussion.

What may seem easy for some (or super awesome), or even for most, isn’t necessarily easy for all.

We are all cognitively pretty different, and there may be a few of us (me included) who have cognitive disabilities.

Mark: I don’t mean to pick on you. Your post just happened to trigger my comment here because your choice of words and the delivery (I don’t believe at all ill-intended) are a common reaction by anybody who would not have a cognitive disability.

“I don’t see the complexity.”

How could you see the complexity? (Cognitive disability aside, cognitive ability can vary wildly/wickedly.)

That does have the power to then embarrass anybody who does see the complexity, essentially pushing him/her into a corner causing his/her challenges to be silenced.

That’s a bad thing.

Maybe, instead, (all of you non-challenged folk) put on the other person’s shoes, or play devil’s advocate: the thing you see as not complex, look upon it as if it were complex.

The thing you see as non-overwhelming and/or non-overstimulating and/or non-distracting, look upon it as if it were overwhelming, and/or overstimulating, and/or distracting.

Maybe nothing can be done. But let’s not give up too quickly. Putting on a creative/inquisitive thinking cap, and bouncing around even the silliest of ideas, some pretty brilliant solutions (or even just conversations) can happen.

Think wheel-chair ramps of the cognitive kind.

#31

Explain to us what you’re seeing so we can understand what is complex. It’s not that I can’t see complexity, I just don’t see that there is a difference in complexity between GG and Discourse. I could just as easily imagine GG as being more complex.

And yes, you are picking on me.

#32

Mark, no person without a cognitive disability can fully understand the challenges of a person with a cognitive disability.

So I am not picking on you as an individual person.

I am, though, addressing the majority of the human population, people who do not have a cognitive disability. Well, I assume the majority does not have a cognitive disability.

So you are the normal one. An enviable position to be picked on because one is normal. You should be so lucky.

I’ve mentioned in various places what I’ve found challenging with discourse, and I’ve got other challenges that I may bring up over time when I feel comfortable to do so.

My only reason for chiming in is because what TiddlyTweeter mentioned re “threading becomes very complex”, the questions of “how” and “what do you mean”, and the answers, are pretty interesting.

If I had been the one posting what TiddlyTweeter posted, I would have immediately withdrawn from the discussion.

My saying I find something complex, I’d immediately exit the conversation, intimidated by “I don’t see complexity.” I’d feel “poo-pooed” or “there-thered”.

Again, you are the normal one. I’m the one with the challenges. I’m just saying that if you keep the conversation inviting, it might be easier to figure out “wheel-chair-access-in-the-cognitive-sense”.

You are the normal one, and you are communicating as the majority of normal folk would. I’m just trying to suggest a way of steering conversation to make it a little bit more welcoming to those of us with challenges.

I’m sorry you feel singled-out, but it isn’t about you. It is about a general lack of sensitivity by the able-minded.

But it is only fair that, if I’m going to ask anybody to step into my shoes, that anybody should in turn ask me to step into his/her shoes.

If anybody feels slighted/attacked/whatever because of how I’m trying to suggest something that would be helpful for folk like me, then please:

Let me know how I can suggest something that helps me in a way that doesn’t have a negative impact on you.

If you find it difficult to converse with somebody who has a disability, the person with the disability is the person who has the answers but also the person who has the challenges of expressing them.

It is a very tough dance.

#33

You still haven’t explained how it is more complicated than GG. Other than that you happen to already be familiar with GG. Both are somewhat complex, but TiddlyWiki isn’t like apple-sauce simple either.

So please take a few lines to explain what it is you find complex. How can anyone help you if they don’t know what you’re seeing? For that matter, what would you have the community do? Reject Discourse because you personally, in some undefined manner, find it difficult? If it’s more complex than GG, then there should be some way to objectify that difference.

Very few people have described me as normal.

#34

I’m not the one who said it was complex, so why are you asking me the questions about that?

I have on other threads talked about very specific things that trigger, for me, sensory/cognitive overload.

Too many things to mention, and only a few that I’ve brought up in other threads.

If you want to tackle me for those, then those other threads are more appropriate.

Not sure I want to bring up all of the things about discourse that cause me cognitive challenges/obstacles/whatever-one-wants-to-call-it, here.

Thanks for the invitation, but not here, and not everything all at once. Bits and pieces over time, in particular discussions.

But if you want to read up on one of my cognitive disabilities, read up on overstimulation and ADHD. Or sensory overload and ADHD. Or cognitive overload and ADHD.

#35

And if of any use to you: Charlie's ADHD Slice'n Dice — - Version: 2021-01-11 06:43pm - An "Intertwingularity Mapping" 🔗 journey with TiddlyWiki about ADHD (inattentive subtype)

This would be my closing post on this back and forth we are having.

My sign-off post. I am back to Google Groups.

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#36

I also feel concerned by this issue and find that I can act on it myself. As a regular/non-itinerant user, I simply add a few extra CSS selectors in my browser, removing a few bits here and there, primarily using a mix of display: none filter: grayscale() selectors. Others probably start trying to find a better theme. I liked the basic one but simply wanted it to have less spark and clutter.

My primary concern lies with itinerant users, as familiarity, theming and tweaking should help (most of??) the regulars adapt at some stage. Would itinerant users be put off and can they be expected to manage the basic functions easily? I reckon that they will, though I again agree with the impression of overload on first contact, which unfortunately adds to the already overwhelming experience of first contact for certain non-techs (the latest thread on the /r/TiddlyWiki5 subreddit is “Love TW5 but frustrated to tears by how hard it is to do basic things as a non-coder”. At one point the original poster mentions “I will try to read [GrokTiddlyWiki] when I calm down from my current state of being paralysed by frustration.” We certainly should be striving to make it easier for recent converts and browsing through the forum will be one of their key experiences in a moment of stress and frustration. Discourse is far from perfect but brings a lot compared to GG: it’s easy to post code, topics can easily be pegged, there are wiki-like threads, etc. More work on onboarding alerts for new users could be worthwhile for instance.

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#37

I think it is more complicated than Google groups. Several ways to access threads, different hilighting colours, lots of numbered circles which don’t seem to accurately represent the actual number of discussions or replies…
On mobile I now just hit the blue tiddly talk button and go through the latest list. I THINK I don’t miss anything that way…

CSS selectors in my browser, removing a few bits here and there, primarily using a mix of display: none filter: grayscale() selectors.

Yay… How? :slight_smile:

I think

Is this a css theme solvable problem… Strip out the clutter?

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#38

The thing is, adding embedded fonts to a document is not basic. In most applications, you add the font to the operating system and just reference it.

#39

I wondered that too. I sometimes use the extension Stylus on certain websites to block the ads without triggering the anti-anti-ad mechanism.

#40

You are of course right, yet it may not seem like that for some people. My point was about the fact that certain non-techies feel overwhelmed, not about whether their expectations are at all reasonable!