Announcing a TiddlyWiki App for Apple Devices

Announcements
#1

Introduction

In the background over the last few weeks, I have started building a TiddlyWiki app for iOS, iPad and macOS.

A couple of weeks ago I reached a significant milestone: the app now runs the full Node.js configuration of TiddlyWiki with an integrated browser. It does not yet support Multi Wiki Server, but hopefully I’ll have that running soon.

Using the app does not require any knowledge of Node.js. In fact, the user experience could not be simpler:

  1. Download the app
  2. Run the app
  3. An empty TiddlyWiki immediately appears that you can use as normal
  4. Changes are automatically synchronised to the file system, and visible as individual .tid files in the “Files” app

Arguably, it is an even simpler process than signing up for a TiddlyWiki online service. Discussions here have often noted that a very significant barrier to the success of TiddlyWiki is that it is too difficult and fiddly to get it set up to save reliably. A TiddlyWiki app can decisively change that: we can finally ship a product that works out of the box, without requiring any technical knowledge to get started.

Embedding the full Node.js configuration of TiddlyWiki makes it possible to access the full range of Node.js features, including functioning as a server. This means that you can allow other users on the same wifi network to connect to the TiddlyWiki running on your phone.

I’m quite excited about this. A commercial TiddlyWiki application that can compete with Obsidian and Notion in terms of ease of use could represent a significant opportunity, both for the healthy future of the project and in the future as a source of revenue to support my work.

The really felicitous thing is the way that the app has been an almost trivial amount of work compared to TiddlyWiki itself, and yet it elevates and consolidates all the work that has been done on TiddlyWiki, making it available for a new, broader audience at very little additional cost.

The app is currently not much more than a proof of concept, and needs a fair amount of work before it will be robust enough for practical usage. But this is the perfect time for us as a community to explore the implications of this development.

Contents

This is a long post, so I’ll list the areas it covers:

  1. We’ll have a look at the user interface of the app as it is now
  2. Then describe some of the future enhancements that I hope to be able to introduce
  3. A quick word about branding
  4. An overview of the technical architecture
  5. Summary of development progress and issues remaining
  6. A discussion of the opportunities arising from the app
  7. Project risks, and their mitigations
  8. Next steps
  9. Frequently Asked Questions
  10. How to get involved
  11. Questions for discussion

Tour of the TiddlyWiki App Today

This section shows how the TiddlyWiki app appears at the moment. Things will change significantly when Multi Wiki Server is integrated, but for the moment app currently uses the regular Node.js configuration of TiddlyWiki, and thus only offers access to a single wiki at a time.

So, the app currently opens straight to that single wiki, and it can be used in the usual way:

Hello There
Hello There3200×2400 366 KB

At the top right there is a refresh button, and a menu that currently just leads to popup information windows. Eventually there will be an “Export” button, a settings screen, and a way to share the IP address of the server with other users as a QR code or message.

IMG_0132
IMG_0132744×629 36.8 KB

To demonstrate that this is the full Node.js configuration of TiddlyWiki, here is a split screen arrangement of TiddlyWiki and Safari showing the same wiki accessed via http://127.0.0.1:8080/

Syncing Changes to the Server
Syncing Changes to the Server1920×1440 125 KB

External links open in an integrated popup browser. This helps to get around a significant limitation of apps on iOS which is that they are not allowed to run in the background. If you switch from TiddlyWiki to another app, after a short period TiddlyWiki will be terminated by the operating system, and will be restarted when you switch back to it. (Note that this restriction does not apply on the Mac where it is possible to run TiddlyWiki, minimise it to the dock, and only interact with it through your preferred desktop browser).

IMG_0135
IMG_01351920×1440 167 KB

Future Enhancements

The core functionality of the app is to provide access to a locally running TiddlyWiki under Node.js. Things will get a lot more interesting soon once it is running MWS. Then it will be possible to create multiple wikis, and share data between them. MWS also includes a full copy of the core plugin library, making it completely self-contained.

There is an opportunity to integrate TiddlyWiki much more closely with the iOS ecosystem. Some of the subsequent enhancements that should be feasible:

  • iOS widget support, allowing tiddler content to be displayed on the home screen
  • The ability to perform media playback in the background. This circumvents Apple’s restrictions on apps running in the background, and would allow users to leave TiddlyWiki in the background and work with it through Safari
  • Syncing with online storage and publishing platforms. For example, automatically pushing a static copy of a wiki to GitHub Pages
  • Realtime notifications (eg task notifications)
  • Integration with Apple’s Shortcuts app, allowing end users to automate operations involving TiddlyWiki
  • Support for controlling remote TiddlyWiki MWS servers alongside the integrated server
  • Integration of Apple’s native APIs for machine learning and artificial intelligence, giving TiddlyWiki the capability to transcribe text, perform OCR and other image recognition tasks
  • I would also like to investigate the possibilities for synchronisation of tiddler content with Apple’s integrated apps like Calendar, Contacts, Reminders

Branding

The primary name of the app will be the plain, unqualified word "TiddlyWiki”. A full name such as “TiddlyWiki for Apple”, “TiddlyWiki for iPhone” or “TiddlyWiki for iPad” can be used where there is ambiguity.

I made a new icon for the app: I started with the concept of Motovun Jack in a cat carrier to convey mobility, but it looked rather like a cage, so I ended up giving him freedom on a skateboard:

TiddlyWiki

Architecture

The pleasing thing about the architecture of the app at this point is that there is so little of it: compared to TiddlyWiki itself, the app is a paper thin layer on the top.

The app uses Node.js to run TiddlyWiki, passing the path of the application data directory as the wiki folder. Simultaneously, it displays an embedded web view pointing to the local address of the server.

One of the implications of this architecture is that the wiki folder resides privately on the device file system, rather than in iCloud. However, the data will be backed up to iCloud with the rest of the device.

Having the single source of truth for your personal data in your pocket/briefcase will be an attractive approach for some people, but many users will prefer to have the prime copy of their material reside in the cloud. That means that the app will need ways to export and synchronise data to external sources.

Progress

Progress has been surprisingly quick on this project (it actually feels like it has taken longer to write this post than to write the code). The velocity of the development is thanks to the flourishing iOS open source community. Two projects have been particularly helpful:

I’ve also been using ChatGPT and Claude.ai to help me learn Swift, Apple’s homegrown programming language. I don’t let ChatGPT write code for me but I find it quite helpful to use it to explain code to me.

There is a fair amount of further work to get the app to the point where it is robust and practical:

  • The Node.js server does not recover properly after the app has been switched to the background
  • There is currently no access to the terminal output of the Node.js server component. We will also need the ability to start and stop it
  • Multi Wiki Support is waiting until I figure out how to compile better-sqlite3 from source
  • Opening a tiddler in a new window is not supported

Opportunities

The real opportunity represented by this project is the chance to experiment with a new business model for TiddlyWiki with a relatively small additional investment.

Up until now, my own revenue stream has come from commercial organisations that make use of TiddlyWiki, and who can pay me commercial rates to help them get the best out of it.

A TiddlyWiki app in the app store opens up the possibility of a retail business model, where my work on TiddlyWiki is supported by end users choosing to pay for TiddlyWiki.

These sort of plans are never certain, but the opportunity right now is that without much more work it is possible to get a functional, useful app in the App Store, and so be able to find out if the idea works commercially.

This project is likely to require a good deal of my time and attention as I learn an entirely new programming environment. That means that it is only worth doing if I can get enough revenue from it, equivalent to the revenue I currently get from my existing wholesale business

That means that I need to make a great app that that doesn’t just appeal to existing TiddlyWiki users, but makes sense as an alternative to Obsidian, Notion, etc. That means that it has to meet the same threshold of quality, attention to detail and ease of use.

There is also the question of how to charge for the app. I am committed to making TiddlyWiki freely available to as many people as possible. I think it is essential that people can use the app without charge. That rules out making it a paid app, so we would be left with optional premium regular subscriptions, or optional “in app purchases”. In such cases the idea is that some functionality would only be available to subscribers. The obvious candidate for add-on services is cloud access: the hosting of your public or private web-based TiddlyWiki, but those kind of features would take a while to evolve.

I’d like to find a commercial model that works from the beginning. One approach is to make the premium features essentially be decoration: alternate icons, colour schemes or fonts. The proposition wouldn’t be that the premium features are super valuable or useful, but rather than the premium features make a fun and effective way for users to support the long term development of TiddlyWiki.

Another possible revenue stream is the possibility of finding commercial organisations who would be prepared to pay to have their own white labelled TiddlyWiki-based app in the App Store.

Risks

The major risk to this project is Apple’s capricious review process. I know some iOS app developers, and they all report frequent frustration. Apple can be unpredictable, suddenly refusing to approve a minor update to an app that has already been updated dozens of times in the past.

One good thing is that there is nothing that the TiddlyWiki app needs to do that isn’t already done by major apps that are already in the App Store.

I think that overall, the best mitigation to this risk is to get a minimal app into the App Store as quickly as possible to surface any problems, and then proceed to iterate on it.

Next Steps

The immediate next step is to get the app into a slightly more usable state, and then we can use Apple’s TestFlight service to offer a free beta so that the community can start using it, and we can start getting feedback.

TestFlight makes things very easy: there will be a link that opens an invitation in the TestFlight app that you can download from Apple. When you accept, the app downloads, and you’re able to use it as usual. There are no charges for TestFlight apps. You will also get any updates in the beta period.

TestFlight allows for up to 10,000 users. I am hoping that the success of the TestFlight campaign will give us a good insight into whether this project is commercially viable.

I would like to wait until MWS is implemented before starting the TestFlight because that will give users a much better idea of the functionality to expect in the full product.

FAQs

  • Can I choose where to place the wiki folder? No, the location of the wiki folder is fixed, and resides on the local storage of the device (“On My iPad/iPhone” in the Files app)
  • What if I want to store my wiki folder in Dropbox? The difficulty is that on iOS file apps like Dropbox do not provide ordinary file storage that can be accessed from other apps. Instead, there is a relatively complex API to allow files to be requested, and if necessary downloaded from the cloud. So the best we can offer will be the ability to synchronise tiddlers to remote storage like Dropbox
  • What about an Android version of the app? It would be great to have an Android app using the same architecture of embedding Node.js with a WebView. However, I think that would need to be a separate project. The app that I am planning would get a lot of its value from it being written specifically with Apple frameworks, and able to take advantage of Apple’s proprietary features and tightly integrating with the operating system
  • But couldn’t you use Cordova to create a cross-platform app that works on iOS and Android? I’ve experimented with Cordova a few times. The end user experience is not great because Cordova apps do not feel like a proper native app
  • So why are you choosing to restrict the app to privileged Apple users? I’m an Apple user myself, but a more interesting reason is that conventional wisdom has it that Apple users spend more money on apps and services than users of other platforms. There’s a chance that the simplest, most accessible path to a sustainable revenue model for TiddlyWiki development is for it to be subsidised by wealthy Apple users. It is not that different from the current model where my work on TiddlyWiki development is subsidised by companies that want to invest in TiddlyWiki

Get Involved

TiddlyWiki benefits enormously from being a community effort, and I hope the TiddlyWiki app for Apple will be the same. One important way that you can help is to share your thoughts; there are some questions below, but I’m interested in all perspectives.

Developers can participate in the development on GitHub:

Questions

This project has been moving quite quickly, and I’d welcome your thoughts, questions and suggestions. Feel free to bring up anything, but some questions that might be interesting to discuss include:

  • Would you be interested in a TiddlyWiki app?
  • What would you use the app for?
  • How much would you pay per year/month for a TiddlyWiki application that works on all your devices?
  • What areas of functionality are important to you?
  • What apps do you already pay for? What makes them good value for money?
  • Do you prefer upfront or subscription pricing?
  • Do you see any risks or downsides with exploring this opportunity?
18 Likes
#2

Yes, but at home I’m a Linux user and an occasional Windows user. At work it’s Windows first, Mac second. My phone is Android, as are the various tablets in my household. So this first pass is likely not for me.

Since I’ve gotten more seriously involved in TW, I’ve used it in very many ways, and would expect a tool like this to also be used in many different ways.

In the $10/month range, I wouldn’t hesitate. At $100/month, I would likely not find it worth it. I would expect that I would be reasonably happy in the $10-20/month range. But of course all that would depend on what’s included.

  • I am mostly happy with browser-based apps, and don’t have a great need for the sort of turn-key solution under discussion. But I would like to be able to play with it, and to share it with non-techie friends/family. I am considering a TW app to help with my wife’s business (a horse-riding stable) and it might be best if I did it in such a manner that the browser is invisible. This sounds like a good approach.

  • I would love automatic backup to GitHub/GitLab/something, with the ability to tag versions and present older versions as backups.

  • I really want multi-user abilities.

I very rarely pay for apps. I pay for access to content.

  • I subscribe online to 8-10 different news services
  • I’m a paid member of GitHub
  • I play chess online on lichess.org, and am one of a small portion that actually pays to do so
  • In some cases, I pay for access in a way that really feels like a donation. I subscribe to the ad-free upgrade to Media Bias Fact Check, not because I care that much about skipping the ads, but as a way to offer support.
  • I paid once up-front for several apps that I use on my mobile device: a dictionary application, two games. In some cases, this allows me to skip ads, but it’s mostly a way to offer compensation for a tool that’s helped me or that I’ve enjoyed.

I should point out that as these mostly $5-25 monthly contributions are piling up, at some point soon, I’m going to have to pare them down.

Since mostly these are about content access, I prefer subscriptions. There I can decide that, say, The Wall Street Journal, is no longer worth the monthly charge, and cancel immediately.

Of course, there’s always the risk that attempt to make a commercial product on top of an open-source one will lead to a schism within the community. I think this is less l likely here, with a nearly two-decade history of considered leadership. But it’s something to watch out for.

2 Likes
#3

On Android, yes. (My answers should all be considered in that light.)

Really, no idea, yet. “Build it and they will come”, methinks.

$50/yr $5/m (though I would likely only pay the yearly amount)

Rapid search and recall. I don’t think I’d use it much for data entry, so I’d expect to populate it from desktop some kind of way (the limited dexterity/ergonomics of handheld devices confounds me).

On the face of it, none really. Although, (it’s been brought up before), you might want to (re)consider the name. The “market” you’re entering won’t know (or even care about) the history, so you could aim for a new market using something less “techie-sounding”. ← It’s unlikely you’ll get another chance like this.

My overall take: this is an astounding revelation, Jeremy. Great idea and if the universe cares at all, will lead to even greater success, long overdue. Kudos.

1 Like
#4

Congratulations! Hope this can be a sustainable development way. A border user group can enrich everyone here.

I personally don’t need to earn money from Tiddlywiki, I’m running a quant trading company and an AI game dev company, which gives me enough money to live and playing what I want to play. I’m mostly looking forward to more plugins in the community. That will need more tw user, and a well living Jeremy to merge PRs for building better plugins :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

TidGi-Mobile Already work for both iOS and Android, by using React Native, though no much people will pay for it (Android app Beta test, TidGi-Mobile v0.2 still not get to 20 paied user). So I don’t have much motivation to release TidGi Mobile iOS version (Also I only use MacBook Pro, don’t have iOS devices). But maybe iOS market is different, hope that will work for the new app.

(BTW, Apple seems block my developer account, because I login on my girl friend’s iPad once. Very annoying.)

TidGi-Desktop also not released on Apple store.

React native suffer from this too. And I have to add a event listener to restart it automatically every time.

I thought running NodeJS on mobile will be battery consuming, so although I can use react-native-nodejs, I still decided to store tiddlers on sqlite, and use an ipc-sync-adaptor to load them as needed to an empty HTML wiki template inside a webview. Also, expose it on internet maybe dangerous.

And on MacOS/Windows, I also use an ipc-sync-adaptor instead of HTTP to load the page and lazy-load tiddlers, because when wifi connection state changes, local ip will change, so user will find changes not saved and lost. (Why not listen on 0.0.0.0? Because sync between mobile and desktop requires getting wiki address with local machine ip, so QR code will be correct, instead of get 0.0.0.0 which is useless for mobile to access)

I’m interested in a cloud sync service, If you managed to build one, I will soon integrate it into TidGi Desktop/Mobile. I always want one that works on Internet (TidGi currently only sync on LAN by scanning QR code, when sync between Desktop and Mobile, while Desktops can sync using Github/Dropbox on Internet.)
I only need cloud-sync for 5% of cases, i.g. forget to sync an important note to mobile before leaving. Since TidGi use sync-adaptor, so it is very rare. I usually will create new notes, and let sync-adaptor merge them. But I will pay for it if it solve this 5% annoying case.

And Obsidian let its payers get unique forum badge, maybe that also applys here.

I think plugin library should allow paid plugins, just like Notion’s template market, using plugin library to share template tiddlers will be a good way to support Tiddlywiki and wikitext authors on this forum.
I thought about these ideas once, but my main interest is in game dev (I record many tiddlers about this topic on my wiki), and I earn money from game dev, so I haven’t spend time implementing these ideas yet. Maybe you can make them official services.

#5

That’s big news :rocket:

I’m personally hoping it’ll eventually also be for Android, but the exposure should be positive regardless and draw people to the community… if things are designed with this intention. For example links to this discussion forum and that TW’s canonical site is still used for docs etc.

1 Like
#6

Definitely. I guess many others will be. Although I don’t actively use an apple device currently except for a macbook (whose display got broken, so I use it via an external display only, that too very rarely), I like this idea very much. While I was using an iphone, I had used quine app (it’s a paid app) - so I am not averse to making a financial contribution to the development of TW. I am from India. Currently I pay for video streaming apps like netflix, amazon prime and hotstar(similar to netflix). Prime and hotstar cost around 1500 indian rupees annually, netflix is costlier starting at 199 rupees monthly. So I will be ok with an yearly charge of around 2000 to 3000 rupees for an app of tiddlywiki, if some of the points which I mention below are present in the app. Also it will be easier to pay for the app in local currency since its via apple app store. Occasionally I have purchased paid apps from the apple and android stores using one time payment.

I do have a ipad in my family which I an use to do the beta testing.

From my point of view, if this app is primarily for apple ecosystem, it should mainly target the iphone (and may be even ipad) users. Because where TW lacks currently is in its usage in mobile devices. In this age, major part of our time in a single day will be spent on our phones. So if we find something which needs to be added to our wiki while using mobile phone, its currently not possible in an easy way. What I do currently is to share such links or articles to private whatsapp group or using self messages in whatsapp. In case of tweets, I bookmark them while using phone and clip them when I am on desktop. This is actually extra work. If the new TW app can access the share option of ios, these things can be done easily.

Previously while I was using remnote, I had tried to use ios shortcuts to send text, images and media files to the remnote app. So using ios shortcut can be very useful for this app.

Another important aspect is quick entry of data while we are using mobile phone (I am thinking of using it in my budget and todo wiki). Once entry is over, it should be possible to save and sync the changes quickly without any data loss.

  1. In my notes wiki, there are plenty of images which are saved in a subdirectory of the wiki folder. These images are displayed in the wiki by using the relative path. Will this work with the proposed new app also ?

  2. How will markdown tiddlers be saved in the files app - will it be saved as .md files ?

  3. Will be there an option to sync the files to onedrive if possible. (because I may want to access the files in my windows and android devices)

UI of tiddlywiki in mobile devices will need some changes along with the release of this app to attract more users.

May be time has come for the arrival of Xememex and another product hunt release

1 Like
#7

first off, congrats! this is an excellent idea and i agree with everything you’ve brought up in terms of pros and cons. mobile users have been looking for a good app solution for a while and having an official one is a huge step forward. hoping you consider an android version at some point in the future, as that is what i (and it looks like many others here) use.

if this app requires an upfront payment (either as a subscription or one-time purchase), then i can see a potential issue in recommending the app/platform to others. currently, the main “cost” of the platform / software is the time investment required to learn and customize the platform to their liking. so, i can currently recommend the platform very broadly to everyone, and if someone finds it isn’t worth their time they can find something else.

unless we want to start advertising broad out-of-the-box utility for newcomers (with more user friendly OOTB features or built-in plugins), it just needs to be clear that someone would be spending money for a project/life/notes management framework for them to build upon and not a full solution. i’d feel bad telling someone “this $20 app will solve all your project management needs” and for them to spend money on it only to find they don’t want to go through the trouble (no trouble to me though :slight_smile: ) of setting it up to get to the point where it actually helps them.

note that none of this is an issue if there is a trial period / free version / optional payment scheme as people can still try it out and leave if they find it is not for them. also, i have not been a new user for a while now, so it’s possible that the new user experience is a lot better than it used to be.

1 Like
#8

Great news, even if I’m not using any Apple devices myself.

Before answering the questions, some context how and why I use my wikis:

  • 1 work/learning wiki on Tiddlyhost which I need to be web hosted, for access on work PC where I can’t install software, but also occasionally need it outside of work, e.g. for notes on webinars, conferences. This is probably the only reason why I went for TW instead of Obsidian, which has probably all I need except for the web hosting and using without installed software.
  • 3 personal wikis for task management, general notes, and cooking recipes. These do not need to be web hosted, but for the simplicity of things I have them on TH too.

Sure, if there is one for Windows and Android.

  • interoperability with cloud providers – so that I can sync personal wikis between my devices using cloud storage as a backup/sync medium
  • interoperability with TW hosting services like Tiddlyhost or other in the future – so that I can work with web hosted wikis with the advantages of an application, which are:
  • local offline cache, background sync, and change merging/ conflict resolution – so that I can take notes with slow/ no internet connection and have them sync in the background later

I’m paying 8$/month for TH and I’d be willing to pay about this much for a comparable TW-dedicated web hosting service, or more if it did things like:

  • image/attachment storage and management
  • MWS support with multi-user/ sharing capabilities

As for an app, I don’t expect it is needed for much more than saving/ caching/ providing access to filesystem, so I don’t think it should cost much, especially if it is supposed to attract new users.

Subscription: 8$/month Tiddlyhost, as already mentioned, but I used it for free for quite a long time before, when acquainting myself with TW. Version history and will to support the project made my decision.
One time payments on Android:

  • Business Calendar, I find it has better UI/UX than any other free or paid calendar app on Android or iOS I have ever seen, even if it looks a bit dated
  • Tasker (like iOS Shortcuts, but more powerful and has been out there years before anything similar existed), I have less and less need for it with Android/Samsung’s advancements over time, but was definitely worth the money, and is still being actively developed
  • Join, worth the money as it’s a one time payment but essentially provides a sync service for sharing links/files between phone and any browser
  • Nova Launcher, don’t use anymore, again due to progress of Android/Samsung UI over time, but used it for so long it was definitely worth it

I prefer upfront, if it were for an app with the cloud sync/ basic dedicated TW hosting, but I understand it would only make sense as a subscription for a more powerful hosting service with features like MWS, multi-user access, sharing, rights management, attachment upload. Btw, isn’t it more or less what you provide for enterprises?

I’m changing the subject, but if you were to run such a hosting service, I would hope for

  • a free tier with limited capabilities (storage, version history, sharing) – as an introduction to new users and good enough for simple personal wikis
  • paid tiers with scaling for different amount of storage/ backup history/ multiuser capabilities, which would scale from medium-power users to small teams
  • open source, so that it can be self hosted for power user that want to be independent to enterprises (where you could be paid for customization/ maintenance/ adjustments as you do now)

To draw some analogies, look at Bitwarden (open source to self host, free tier for basic personal usage, paid advanced personal/ enterprise) or Mattermost (open source to self host, paid hosting for businesses I think?).

  1. It should be cross platform, not Apple-exclusive in the long run. But I understand the reasoning behind starting with Apple.
  2. I think a big problem for using TW on phones is the lack of a good mobile interface. This needs as much attention (if not more) as the application-specific things like caching/ background sync/ filesystem access.’
  3. As mentioned by @CodaCoder, the branding is important. Professional sounding name and looking icon won’t be necessary for established TW users, but will be if the aim is to attract new users.
  4. I hope this is obvious, but I wouldn’t want the browser/web based flavor of TW to suffer/ get behind in any way other than due to the inherent limitations of the browser platform.

Thumbs up to the following thoughts:

2 Likes
#9

I’ll open by saying that I’m not a iOS user but I totally applaud the initiative.
The possibilities that this opens both financially and in terms of community growth seem great.

Yes a lot, but on Android, Windows or Linux only. Hope to see one in the long run, but I understand the choice to go with iOS

  • Ideally at least the basics like note taking, tasks, to-dos.
  • Native notifications would be great.
  • If supported, some sort of TiddlyWiki based automation would be absolutely awesome.
  • Cherry on top: Local only, cloudless, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth or NFC based private sync of local devices.

I despise subscriptions with utmost intensity, especially for things which are not services, but I understand the need for a steady stream of revenue.

I’d prefer a single upfront payment, but I’d be willing to go for a model where to keep things interesting, single payments include some grace period of updates (say one year for example), then the app is yours to keep forever without cripling it, but further updates require renewal.
This stimulates both users to update but also encourages development to keep things fresh and evolving.

Under this model, if it is any good I’d be willing to go as far up as 50€ or 60€ per year.
Maybe more if advanced features are available, like automation and system integration etc…

Local only, cloudless, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth or NFC based private sync of local devices.

I tend to prefer free and open source whenever possible, but I’m wiling to make donations, even recurring sponsorships. I currently have a few recurring donations active for open source projects I use daily, like Blender and BlenderBIM and I’m open to more.

Other than that I’m wiling to pay for single purchase apps if I deem them worthy, like

I value apps that respect my privacy and freedom as paying user. Not having overly restrictive licensing or overzealous DRM systems is paramount.

Upfront, subscription optional

Not many, seems like a good idea in general. There is only one risk I’d like to alert to, that I’ve seen happen to other “small” projects I follow.

When going commercial, if there is money involved, end users will have (justly or not) certain expectations, like a certain level of quality, higher standards of support, shorter response times for interactions, etc…

Management tasks can obviously add up in terms of time and effort, and may consume considerable amounts of manpower, that might end up not being proportional to the benefits it generates. I’m not advising against, just alerting to the possibility.

#10

This is great news! Thank you for working on this. I am an Android user, so this won’t benefit me yet, but I think this is a great direction for the project.

Would you be interested in a TiddlyWiki app?

Absolutely.

What would you use the app for?

It would likely be my primary copy of TW that I use to take notes throughout the day on all sorts of random things. I would use it for tasks as well if notification support was available.

How much would you pay per year/month for a TiddlyWiki application that works on all your devices?

I think $5/mo would be reasonable, similar to Obsidian’s pricing.

What areas of functionality are important to you?

Ability to quickly add a tiddler, share content from another app, and notifications.

What apps do you already pay for? What makes them good value for money?

Todoist, Mealime, and YNAB. These apps provide more value to me than they cost.

Do you prefer upfront or subscription pricing?

I don’t mind subscription pricing if it is a reasonable amount. It is a more sustainable model for software, in my opinion.

Do you see any risks or downsides with exploring this opportunity?

No, I think this is a great opportunity.

1 Like
#11

  1. Yes. Currently use Windows and Android, though it is possible in the next couple years I switch to Apple.

  2. My journal, and daily planner.

  3. I’d probably be willing to pay $13/month CAD.

  4. The ability to sync instantly between my computer and phone, without issue. The ability to easily embed images/pictures.

  5. Spotify. It is more convenient than pirating music, and has good algorithms for discovering new muaic.

  6. Subscription.

  7. No.

#12

Great questions! I’m an iOS user already.

Most of my TW5 projects have been on TiddlyHost, and many of those benefit from being on a public-facing server.

But an iOS-based app would be convenient for purely personal documents, especially if they seamlessly syncronized across devices including my (M1) Mac (which I think most iOS apps now can do, yes?). The reason I’d really need my laptop in the loop is that it’s frustrating to do much text-based entry or editing on iOS. So, I’d want the iOS app to be something like a place to check off daily goals and have easy access to info, though the interface and most of the data structure would be configured on my laptop.

I already pay for TiddlyHost (not an app, but an important TW-related subscription), Dropbox, Evernote (trying to phase that out!), LastPass (may try to phase that out)…

I will say, as a cautionary note, that I once paid for Filemaker Go — the mobile platform version of Filemaker — but found that I really wasn’t working with the files much on the iOS, because the touchscreen interface was much less fluent for handling data. If there were a high-stakes database solution hanging in the balance, I might have invested lots of time in developing a mobile-friendly interface, but that’s a pretty big learning curve. And I pretty much reverted to using Filemaker only on my desktop platform.

I suspect that my biggest hurdle, in embracing TiddlyWiki for iOS, would be similar: I’d be tempted to start with an existing TW5 with the familiar plugins and utility packages that fit my desktop use patterns, but then it might take a significant effort to get themes and interactive elements that work well on the small mobile touchscreen. Perhaps a solid set of custom layouts and tweaked versions of popular plugins would make a big difference here.

Having something like the ability to seamlessly store images in the iOS filesystem, just by dropping/pasting into TW5, would be a tremendous feature. Otherwise workflow with images might be too much of a struggle. Naive users from beyond the TiddlyWiki ecosystem — people used to Evernote and such — would not be patient with needing a special solution for images.

I look forward to hearing about this as it develops!

#13

Interested?

  • yes -iOS user just for phone; Windows/Android for everything else
  • a smoother alternative to manual Dropbox syncing and less options when opened through Dropbox

Usage?

  • daily notes (Google Keep alternative)
  • on-the-go info source

Functionality

  • syncing between phone & desktop (over local WiFi/Bluetooth would be nice, server connection works too)
  • os-notifications would be really great for helping to keep functionality within TW

Pay for apps?

  • no monthly subs currently
  • yearly subs for Office365 and VPN
    ** O365 on desktop, VPN desktop & mobile

Upfront/Sub pricing?

  • depends on update cycle and features/security updates
    ** bought Photoshop CS2 in 2010 and have not needed to upgrade since
    ** O365 (yearly) makes sense for keeping up with work compatibility
    ** VPN (yearly) means ongoing support without having to track a monthly expense
  • $5-10/month seems fine, but open to considering whatever makes sense to keep the project going

Risks?

  • mainly just the increased possibility of bad actors if more attention is drawn to the platform, but that’s not mobile app-specific
#14

  1. I struggle to convince myself that I’d find a lot of use for this. For context, I run a few TiddlyWikis (one main one, plus a few experimental ones) and use them regularly. I love the concepts behind TiddlyWiki, and consider it without equal as a super-powered (personal) documentation system. It’s the mobile app bit I find myself doubting (iOS or otherwise) - reasons given at point 7.

  2. My main TiddlyWiki use is as a personal documentation system for all kinds of things I learn, discover and achieve, and wish to be able to review and come back to indefinitely. I’ve also explored using it as a more structured cataloging / “database” system, which implementation is fantastically promising, and only limited by my own lack of wiki-skills.

  3. Hard to answer given my uncertainty about whether I’d actually use it. I currently run TW (nodeJS) on my home-server, which is externally accessible. So in a way, I already have access on all devices. But I almost never access/use from my iOS devices.

  4. The main thing I can think of (assuming I was to use a TW app) would be the device-specific advantages one might obtain. For example, the facility to take a photo on my phone camera and add it directly to a chosen tiddler.

  5. I err quite hard towards the world of FOSS tools. But I’m happy to pay for useful tools either as a voluntary contribution (e.g. openstreetmap.org - extremely useful, high value community driven project), or that extend of FOSS service I use in a valuable way (e.g. I run my own audibookshelf.org server - I recently paid for the app Plappa as a well built iOS client for accessing my server).

  6. Much prefer upfront pricing

  7. My doubts about an iOS (mobile) TW app fit into two main categories:

i) very much in agreement with @Springer, usability would be a huge concern for me on any kind of touchscreen device, and doubly so on a phone-sized device. It’s not just the normal plain text entry, but of course wikitext makes heavy use of various punctuation symbols which would make it an immediate write-off (for me) on anything less than a full physical keyboard. Editing one’s errors (copious in my case) without a mouse / track-pad / arrow keys for details cursor manipulation would add a whole other level of stress.
For me, these considerations would seem to suggest that app-based use would be largely limited to retrieval / review of existing wiki content, rather than generation.
Even then, on a phone sized device I think I’d personally get limited value. As mentioned above, I self-host my wikis and can access them from any browser. I almost never do so through my phone. The interface simply isn’t sufficiently optimised to give a good user experience on a small screen.

ii) my second doubt comes specifically when I extrapolate my mind to the new TW user. I think for a lot of people looking for a note-taking / journaling app, if they downloaded the TW app and were simply presented with the current Empty - Getting Started TW, the required learning curve might be substantially too steep. As we all know, part of the power and the beauty of TW as it currently exist is that one can use it as a “platform” to build a system meeting one’s own requirements. But this is a non-trivial journey, and from the viewpoint of someone downloading an app to “see if it’s any good”, I can see this being a very difficult hurdle to clear.
Perhaps this might be eased through the inclusion of a more “complete” starter wiki for new users - something a novice user can “get the idea of” and start using within the first couple of minutes of trying the app.

Having said all that, I’d be very happy to see myself proved wrong, and see a TW app take off and become mainstream - will be watching this space with interest!

5 Likes
#15

to replace Quine2, which I currently use to edit wikis while offline while taking notes when attending classes.

I also use(d) it for playing music (I have a TW with some JS code that I use as a music player), but since about a year or so audio playback became unreliable in iOS (stops after the currently-played song ends); I’m really happy to hear you are aware of this issue and will work on it.

5 USD/month, since I’m currently unemployed (humble undergrad here); if I was employed, 10 USD/month.

  • being able to use it while offline
  • being able to sync it with any available/reasonable tooling, hopefully without relying on third parties.
    • for example, as of now, I sync my Quine2 wikis using Mobius Syncthing, which lets me edit my TW from both the iPad and my Linux laptop.
  • being able to use TWs stored in any location in my iPad, not just under the storage “owned” by the TW application
    • Quine2 currently allows this, via “bookmarks”, and not being able to do this in the new TW app would be a no-go for me.
  • drag-and-drop (or “Sharing” in apple-ese) images/files to TW and have them stored as external files
    • currently I create the file in its desired location manually and then link to it, which is manageable but somewhat clunky
  • printing a set of tiddlers (the story river), or just a single tiddler (as one does when opening a tiddler in an external window)

I’ve purchased Osmand, and Quine2, and Mobius Sync/Syncthing; all of those were one-time payments.

I prefer upfront pricing in general.

To be more specific: let’s say I purchase v1 of an app for XXX USD; I should be able to use v1 indefinitely; I only feel comfortable paying again for v2 if:

  • v2 has some sort of discount for previous customers
  • I still can continue using v1 if I don’t feel like paying again, whenever this is technically feasible on the platform, of course.

That said, for this particular app, I’d be more than happy to have a subscription model; I interact with TW on a daily basis, and have done so for 3-years-and-counting; this is perhaps the only app for which I would pay a subscription, because I know that’s supporting you and this project, @jeremyruston .

Also, if it is subscription-based, I guess it’s possible to have models like “first month is free, see how the app works for you, after that you should subscribe”…

it might confuse people and lead them to think that you have to pay to use TW; at least on iOS.

2 Likes
#16
  • Would you be interested in a TiddlyWiki app?
    • Yes, I do use iOS now, though not for TiddlyWiki today
  • What would you use the app for?
    • Ideally I’d be able to use it for at least reading, and at-best modifying my wikis which are running on node on my desktop windows machine (somehow)
  • How much would you pay per year/month for a TiddlyWiki application that works on all your devices?
    • My needs app-wise are sporadic, so maybe something like $5/mo. at most would be justifiable for the app itself.
  • What areas of functionality are important to you?
    • Offline capable editing / syncing to master location
  • What apps do you already pay for? What makes them good value for money?
    • A few different apps, primarily to avoid ads which I strongly dislike
  • Do you prefer upfront or subscription pricing?
    • Prefer upfront, but for heavy-use or things that require a “service” component, subscription seems justifiable
  • Do you see any risks or downsides with exploring this opportunity?
    • Nothing to add what’s been said already

On a related note, Saq had mentioned that he has an “experiment” going on with Github syncing and hasn’t figured out how to do background-synching for mobile offline capabilities without an app. If these efforts combined, the value goes up for me. Having offline capable editing on both laptop and mobile that synced reliably and was simple to use would be very helpful.

Then, if you had that and multi-user, the value goes up again. Those are the two use-cases where I still have to use OneNote for many purposes, as it handles those situations beautifully.

#17

I need to deploy tiddlywiki as a learningapp for users on the web, so I do not know whether this would be a way to enhance me doing this.
The only thing that deeply would interest me in an apple app for TW would be the possibility to integrate the ai features apple seems to offer in autum to TW. Anything helpfull there would be a big step foreward.

So fantacising what my ideal tiddlywiki-mac-app would look be able to work as a server running a multiuser-wiki- allowing users to post tiddlers which then could be processed by the ai features. (Like an image of handwritten text could be recognized and comented by ai. )

#18

An exciting project, Jeremy. I have been a user of Windows and Apple systems for over 15 years. In addition to using TW on Firefox, I have supported Quine on iPhone and iPad from day one with Test Flight. I don’t write any code, I am just a simple end user. GTD/GSD-type TWs have been my main focus. My TWs are edited on Mac or PC for the most part. I use Quine on my iPhone and iPad to check my notes, rarely editing. I understand the pros and cons of Quine 2, which I am currently using.

IMHO, while an Apple app would be great for serious users, meaning great TW applications written for it off the shelf and not having to fiddle with code outside robust plugins and themes, I would hesitate to spend money and time customizing my TWs. For example, I would be willing to pay for TW+great Obsidian replacement, though not for a TW app without including any ready-to-go TW plugin. It would be risky to offer a subscription for an Apple app without any value-added Obsidian or other exciting plugin.

#19

My iPhone runs the nodejs version of tiddlywiki on jsbox (https://docs.xteko.com/).

The app I’m paying for is quine

The features I want to pay for are more packaged input and output formats. Like tiddlywiki and csv conversion to each other. Like interconvert with obsidian. Like converting to pdf.

The features I want are a combination of chat and collaborative documentation. Similar to smartsuite (https://www.smartsuite.com/)

One direction I’d like to see tiddlywiki go is a smaller core and more free and paid plugins. Like a storage only core.

One app I can think of that could be paid for is a tiddlywiki with simplified functionality for new users.

I like buyout payments. And yearly updates packaged as a paid feature pack.

1 Like
#20

I like the idea and for private use it is OK.

To use it commercial, what is I am trying in my organization, here some more topics.

User access management:

  • Read only
  • Allowed to write but the content need to be released
  • Person who is allowed to release content

Information security

  • Where the information will be stored?
  • How to ensure information security?
  • The possibility to use storages form the company or from the company ordered (MS-OneDrive, Google Cloud, AMAZON Drive, pCloud, DropBox, etc.)

Finally?
How to be part of the TestFlight Group?

  • Would you be interested in a TiddlyWiki app?
    Definitive YES!
  • What would you use the app for?
    Private: Family, Students, Learning groups, Boyscouts :wink:
    Commercial: Nearby all industries, but see my comments above
  • How much would you pay per year/month for a TiddlyWiki application that works on all your devices?
    One time payment for a version 5€ if I have to use my own storage. In case of changing the version due to huge changes and functions again 5€.
    Monthly, Quarterly and Yearly it depends of the size of the wiki. It should not be more expensive as the iCloud storage.
    Very important here: The possibility to test the functionality (see next bullet point)
  • What areas of functionality are important to you?
    Really important is the possibility to transfer the existing one-file-wiki to the app and to be able to test the functions, plugins, etc.
  • What apps do you already pay for? What makes them good value for money?
    I and also the organization I am working for will pay for Apps with good service in case of problems and to be sure for updates and long time continues service.
  • Do you prefer upfront or subscription pricing?
    Both: See “How much …”
  • Do you see any risks or downsides with exploring this opportunity?
    No, as long as there are known

Hopefully this will be reality …