This is great news! Thank you for working on this. I am an Android user, so this won’t benefit me yet, but I think this is a great direction for the project.
Would you be interested in a TiddlyWiki app?
Absolutely.
What would you use the app for?
It would likely be my primary copy of TW that I use to take notes throughout the day on all sorts of random things. I would use it for tasks as well if notification support was available.
How much would you pay per year/month for a TiddlyWiki application that works on all your devices?
I think $5/mo would be reasonable, similar to Obsidian’s pricing.
What areas of functionality are important to you?
Ability to quickly add a tiddler, share content from another app, and notifications.
What apps do you already pay for? What makes them good value for money?
Todoist, Mealime, and YNAB. These apps provide more value to me than they cost.
Do you prefer upfront or subscription pricing?
I don’t mind subscription pricing if it is a reasonable amount. It is a more sustainable model for software, in my opinion.
Do you see any risks or downsides with exploring this opportunity?
Most of my TW5 projects have been on TiddlyHost, and many of those benefit from being on a public-facing server.
But an iOS-based app would be convenient for purely personal documents, especially if they seamlessly syncronized across devices including my (M1) Mac (which I think most iOS apps now can do, yes?). The reason I’d really need my laptop in the loop is that it’s frustrating to do much text-based entry or editing on iOS. So, I’d want the iOS app to be something like a place to check off daily goals and have easy access to info, though the interface and most of the data structure would be configured on my laptop.
I already pay for TiddlyHost (not an app, but an important TW-related subscription), Dropbox, Evernote (trying to phase that out!), LastPass (may try to phase that out)…
I will say, as a cautionary note, that I once paid for Filemaker Go — the mobile platform version of Filemaker — but found that I really wasn’t working with the files much on the iOS, because the touchscreen interface was much less fluent for handling data. If there were a high-stakes database solution hanging in the balance, I might have invested lots of time in developing a mobile-friendly interface, but that’s a pretty big learning curve. And I pretty much reverted to using Filemaker only on my desktop platform.
I suspect that my biggest hurdle, in embracing TiddlyWiki for iOS, would be similar: I’d be tempted to start with an existing TW5 with the familiar plugins and utility packages that fit my desktop use patterns, but then it might take a significant effort to get themes and interactive elements that work well on the small mobile touchscreen. Perhaps a solid set of custom layouts and tweaked versions of popular plugins would make a big difference here.
Having something like the ability to seamlessly store images in the iOS filesystem, just by dropping/pasting into TW5, would be a tremendous feature. Otherwise workflow with images might be too much of a struggle. Naive users from beyond the TiddlyWiki ecosystem — people used to Evernote and such — would not be patient with needing a special solution for images.
I look forward to hearing about this as it develops!
yes -iOS user just for phone; Windows/Android for everything else
a smoother alternative to manual Dropbox syncing and less options when opened through Dropbox
Usage?
daily notes (Google Keep alternative)
on-the-go info source
Functionality
syncing between phone & desktop (over local WiFi/Bluetooth would be nice, server connection works too)
os-notifications would be really great for helping to keep functionality within TW
Pay for apps?
no monthly subs currently
yearly subs for Office365 and VPN
** O365 on desktop, VPN desktop & mobile
Upfront/Sub pricing?
depends on update cycle and features/security updates
** bought Photoshop CS2 in 2010 and have not needed to upgrade since
** O365 (yearly) makes sense for keeping up with work compatibility
** VPN (yearly) means ongoing support without having to track a monthly expense
$5-10/month seems fine, but open to considering whatever makes sense to keep the project going
Risks?
mainly just the increased possibility of bad actors if more attention is drawn to the platform, but that’s not mobile app-specific
I struggle to convince myself that I’d find a lot of use for this. For context, I run a few TiddlyWikis (one main one, plus a few experimental ones) and use them regularly. I love the concepts behind TiddlyWiki, and consider it without equal as a super-powered (personal) documentation system. It’s the mobile app bit I find myself doubting (iOS or otherwise) - reasons given at point 7.
My main TiddlyWiki use is as a personal documentation system for all kinds of things I learn, discover and achieve, and wish to be able to review and come back to indefinitely. I’ve also explored using it as a more structured cataloging / “database” system, which implementation is fantastically promising, and only limited by my own lack of wiki-skills.
Hard to answer given my uncertainty about whether I’d actually use it. I currently run TW (nodeJS) on my home-server, which is externally accessible. So in a way, I already have access on all devices. But I almost never access/use from my iOS devices.
The main thing I can think of (assuming I was to use a TW app) would be the device-specific advantages one might obtain. For example, the facility to take a photo on my phone camera and add it directly to a chosen tiddler.
I err quite hard towards the world of FOSS tools. But I’m happy to pay for useful tools either as a voluntary contribution (e.g. openstreetmap.org - extremely useful, high value community driven project), or that extend of FOSS service I use in a valuable way (e.g. I run my own audibookshelf.org server - I recently paid for the app Plappa as a well built iOS client for accessing my server).
Much prefer upfront pricing
My doubts about an iOS (mobile) TW app fit into two main categories:
i) very much in agreement with @Springer, usability would be a huge concern for me on any kind of touchscreen device, and doubly so on a phone-sized device. It’s not just the normal plain text entry, but of course wikitext makes heavy use of various punctuation symbols which would make it an immediate write-off (for me) on anything less than a full physical keyboard. Editing one’s errors (copious in my case) without a mouse / track-pad / arrow keys for details cursor manipulation would add a whole other level of stress.
For me, these considerations would seem to suggest that app-based use would be largely limited to retrieval / review of existing wiki content, rather than generation.
Even then, on a phone sized device I think I’d personally get limited value. As mentioned above, I self-host my wikis and can access them from any browser. I almost never do so through my phone. The interface simply isn’t sufficiently optimised to give a good user experience on a small screen.
ii) my second doubt comes specifically when I extrapolate my mind to the new TW user. I think for a lot of people looking for a note-taking / journaling app, if they downloaded the TW app and were simply presented with the current Empty - Getting Started TW, the required learning curve might be substantially too steep. As we all know, part of the power and the beauty of TW as it currently exist is that one can use it as a “platform” to build a system meeting one’s own requirements. But this is a non-trivial journey, and from the viewpoint of someone downloading an app to “see if it’s any good”, I can see this being a very difficult hurdle to clear.
Perhaps this might be eased through the inclusion of a more “complete” starter wiki for new users - something a novice user can “get the idea of” and start using within the first couple of minutes of trying the app.
Having said all that, I’d be very happy to see myself proved wrong, and see a TW app take off and become mainstream - will be watching this space with interest!
to replace Quine2, which I currently use to edit wikis while offline while taking notes when attending classes.
I also use(d) it for playing music (I have a TW with some JS code that I use as a music player), but since about a year or so audio playback became unreliable in iOS (stops after the currently-played song ends); I’m really happy to hear you are aware of this issue and will work on it.
5 USD/month, since I’m currently unemployed (humble undergrad here); if I was employed, 10 USD/month.
being able to use it while offline
being able to sync it with any available/reasonable tooling, hopefully without relying on third parties.
for example, as of now, I sync my Quine2 wikis using Mobius Syncthing, which lets me edit my TW from both the iPad and my Linux laptop.
being able to use TWs stored in any location in my iPad, not just under the storage “owned” by the TW application
Quine2 currently allows this, via “bookmarks”, and not being able to do this in the new TW app would be a no-go for me.
drag-and-drop (or “Sharing” in apple-ese) images/files to TW and have them stored as external files
currently I create the file in its desired location manually and then link to it, which is manageable but somewhat clunky
printing a set of tiddlers (the story river), or just a single tiddler (as one does when opening a tiddler in an external window)
I’ve purchased Osmand, and Quine2, and Mobius Sync/Syncthing; all of those were one-time payments.
I prefer upfront pricing in general.
To be more specific: let’s say I purchase v1 of an app for XXX USD; I should be able to use v1 indefinitely; I only feel comfortable paying again for v2 if:
v2 has some sort of discount for previous customers
I still can continue using v1 if I don’t feel like paying again, whenever this is technically feasible on the platform, of course.
That said, for this particular app, I’d be more than happy to have a subscription model; I interact with TW on a daily basis, and have done so for 3-years-and-counting; this is perhaps the only app for which I would pay a subscription, because I know that’s supporting you and this project, @jeremyruston .
Also, if it is subscription-based, I guess it’s possible to have models like “first month is free, see how the app works for you, after that you should subscribe”…
it might confuse people and lead them to think that you have to pay to use TW; at least on iOS.
Yes, I do use iOS now, though not for TiddlyWiki today
What would you use the app for?
Ideally I’d be able to use it for at least reading, and at-best modifying my wikis which are running on node on my desktop windows machine (somehow)
How much would you pay per year/month for a TiddlyWiki application that works on all your devices?
My needs app-wise are sporadic, so maybe something like $5/mo. at most would be justifiable for the app itself.
What areas of functionality are important to you?
Offline capable editing / syncing to master location
What apps do you already pay for? What makes them good value for money?
A few different apps, primarily to avoid ads which I strongly dislike
Do you prefer upfront or subscription pricing?
Prefer upfront, but for heavy-use or things that require a “service” component, subscription seems justifiable
Do you see any risks or downsides with exploring this opportunity?
Nothing to add what’s been said already
On a related note, Saq had mentioned that he has an “experiment” going on with Github syncing and hasn’t figured out how to do background-synching for mobile offline capabilities without an app. If these efforts combined, the value goes up for me. Having offline capable editing on both laptop and mobile that synced reliably and was simple to use would be very helpful.
Then, if you had that and multi-user, the value goes up again. Those are the two use-cases where I still have to use OneNote for many purposes, as it handles those situations beautifully.
I need to deploy tiddlywiki as a learningapp for users on the web, so I do not know whether this would be a way to enhance me doing this.
The only thing that deeply would interest me in an apple app for TW would be the possibility to integrate the ai features apple seems to offer in autum to TW. Anything helpfull there would be a big step foreward.
So fantacising what my ideal tiddlywiki-mac-app would look be able to work as a server running a multiuser-wiki- allowing users to post tiddlers which then could be processed by the ai features. (Like an image of handwritten text could be recognized and comented by ai. )
An exciting project, Jeremy. I have been a user of Windows and Apple systems for over 15 years. In addition to using TW on Firefox, I have supported Quine on iPhone and iPad from day one with Test Flight. I don’t write any code, I am just a simple end user. GTD/GSD-type TWs have been my main focus. My TWs are edited on Mac or PC for the most part. I use Quine on my iPhone and iPad to check my notes, rarely editing. I understand the pros and cons of Quine 2, which I am currently using.
IMHO, while an Apple app would be great for serious users, meaning great TW applications written for it off the shelf and not having to fiddle with code outside robust plugins and themes, I would hesitate to spend money and time customizing my TWs. For example, I would be willing to pay for TW+great Obsidian replacement, though not for a TW app without including any ready-to-go TW plugin. It would be risky to offer a subscription for an Apple app without any value-added Obsidian or other exciting plugin.
The features I want to pay for are more packaged input and output formats. Like tiddlywiki and csv conversion to each other. Like interconvert with obsidian. Like converting to pdf.
The features I want are a combination of chat and collaborative documentation. Similar to smartsuite (https://www.smartsuite.com/)
One direction I’d like to see tiddlywiki go is a smaller core and more free and paid plugins. Like a storage only core.
One app I can think of that could be paid for is a tiddlywiki with simplified functionality for new users.
I like buyout payments. And yearly updates packaged as a paid feature pack.
To use it commercial, what is I am trying in my organization, here some more topics.
User access management:
Read only
Allowed to write but the content need to be released
Person who is allowed to release content
Information security
Where the information will be stored?
How to ensure information security?
The possibility to use storages form the company or from the company ordered (MS-OneDrive, Google Cloud, AMAZON Drive, pCloud, DropBox, etc.)
Finally?
How to be part of the TestFlight Group?
Would you be interested in a TiddlyWiki app?
Definitive YES!
What would you use the app for?
Private: Family, Students, Learning groups, Boyscouts
Commercial: Nearby all industries, but see my comments above
How much would you pay per year/month for a TiddlyWiki application that works on all your devices?
One time payment for a version 5€ if I have to use my own storage. In case of changing the version due to huge changes and functions again 5€.
Monthly, Quarterly and Yearly it depends of the size of the wiki. It should not be more expensive as the iCloud storage.
Very important here: The possibility to test the functionality (see next bullet point)
What areas of functionality are important to you?
Really important is the possibility to transfer the existing one-file-wiki to the app and to be able to test the functions, plugins, etc.
What apps do you already pay for? What makes them good value for money?
I and also the organization I am working for will pay for Apps with good service in case of problems and to be sure for updates and long time continues service.
Do you prefer upfront or subscription pricing?
Both: See “How much …”
Do you see any risks or downsides with exploring this opportunity?
No, as long as there are known
Of course and I think this is a great idea too with many opportunities, like you wrote.
Q: What would you use the app for?
Mainly for keeping track of my countless ideas and keep vital information at my fingertips. Of course there are many other apps on iOS doing the same. But over the last 15 months I got familiar with TiddlyWiki and it’s versatile configuration that I rarely use other things/apps.
I find it tempting to tinker around with TiddlyWiki whenever I have some spare time left, because I almost keep my mobile phone with me.
Oh, almost forgot that I use it heavily at work to gather all sort of valuable information (small projects, contacts, meetings, how-to’s, ticket-tracking, etc.) - never could stay alive without it!
That’s way I’m really keen on having a full working TiddlyWiki instance on my mobile - we are moving towards Windows11 at the office and there will be several security measures, too. Like allowing execution for certain registered apps (all others will be blocked, therefore no local webDAV server), encrypted USB devices only (no decryption outside the office environment means no data transfer to and from private devices) and potentially no custom PlugIns for Web Browsers (means no use of Pmario’s “file backup plugin” ).
Q: How much would you pay per year/month for a TiddlyWiki application that works on all your devices?
I hate software subscriptions in general, because costs tend to pile up. I bought several apps in the past, most of them were one-time-payment. I don’t like to pay for ALL of them in a subscription model.
But for a TiddlyWiki App I would change my mind - why?
It’s finally a good opportunity to spend you some money for your great concept and your many ideas and continous hard work.
15 to 20 pounds per month would be fine for me.
Q: What areas of functionality are important to you?
I’m actually using Quine2 and a webDAV server at home. Along with “Filebrowser Professional” (www.stratospherix.com) and a custom user sync (which runs periodically in the background) I can keep all of my (single-file) Wikis up to date on all of my devices. Filebrowser Pro was a one-time payment and is well worth the money.
As long as the iOS app keeps up with the same functionality like single-file Wikis, this would be fine for me. Sync would be done with Filebrowser Professional.
But I’d also like to evolve, using MultiWiki-Server and node.js TiddlyWiki - so yes, if I could get this additional functionality it would be very nice, too.
What I don’t like is being pushed to use cloud services. As an option, this would be alright, but I also need a chance to keep my data local.
Q: What apps do you already pay for? What makes them good value for money?
Filebrowser Professional (tons of options, the perfect file manager on iOS). Quine2, to run TiddlyWiki on my Apple device.
Most of my app purchases were done to get rid of the annoying ads
Q: Do you prefer upfront or subscription pricing?
Subscription pricing preferred to show support for Jeremy’s work.
Q: Do you see any risks or downsides with exploring this opportunity?
In the worst case the App isn’t approved by Apple - so I think it is important that you try to approve it early.
But on the other hand I can’t see a real problem why it shouldn’t be approved.
Positive thinking!
Looking forward for a first test with Testflight - where can I sign in?
Hi Jeremy,
Reading again what Features are planned, I thing I would buy the App. But please make it a Single payment.
Sudcription would be okay, if you would provide a service that could replace my hoster.
Here is my idea for the app. It would be great if you tiddlers to desktop widgets. EG to Build your own idea aggregator
[1] Selective Sync-to-Cloud: For a PIM/ Zettelkasten/ Digital Mind Garden (whatever you wanna call it) to serve as one’s Trusted System (per GTD-speak), data storage must be local-first, with the ability to sync subsets of selected content (i.e. a set of tagged or filtered tiddlers) to one’s choice of online repository (could be different wikis, each w/ own cloud clone, i guess via MWS?).
[2] Markdown: .MD being the defacto lingua franca for rich text content across platforms, this is essential for dynamic flow of content to the outside world (i.e. WWW). If TW retains WikiText as its default format for all .TID files, that is OK, just so long as user can set .MD as the default format for all content flowing out to selected online sources, as a “one-and-done” parameter config.
[3] Interop: As a paying subscriber to Apple’s iCloud services, that is a logical choice for the sync partner at least initially… But, in the interest of growing our installed user base well beyond the Apple ecosystem (which >90% of previous posters in this thread would clearly like to see!), it would be very good if sync to competitive cloud services were ot be enabled.
Finally @jeremyruston i have to ask: is this project still ongoing? I went to the Github repo, but there’s been no update there in more than 2 months, so…Any news on this front, i would be most interested to hear about it -and if there’s anything like a TestFight beta release on the horizon, please deal me in!
D o you need beta testers? I have the tester app you mentioned and have been an everyday user since 2005 who has been searching for iOS method of working with my large nodejs tiddlywiki.
Very much so. I’m currently an Apple user with regards to a Smartphone but Windows for desktop.
It depends on the limitiations with regards to how many seperate wiki’s I can have. I currently have a number of them that are used on a regular basis but the main one is a journal/ organizer.
I’m not sure and it would depend of functionality and what happens to my data after a subscription ends. Current thoughts are about £3-£5 a month though I would prefer a one off payment model.
For Tiddlywiki it would be the ability to access and edit multiple wiki’s on my phone and yet still have access to them on my Windows machines.
I like to locally host my wiki’s so not sure how this will work. Ones I want access to via my phone I currently use Dropbox.
Currently only paying for media subscription services that have apps such as Audible and Netflix, though probably won’t be on the latter for to much longer. Content and ease of accessability.
Upfront payment gives me a greater sense of ownership which is one of the reasons I like TiddlyWiki so much.
My only concerns on how my wiki’s will be synched across platforms without being in the cloud. I can already access for ready only purposes TiddlyWiki via dropbox so the only real benefit of an app is the ability to write and update.
Yes. I’ve just reacquired an iPad (from daughter) so went looking for this kind of option. Since retiring I’ve replaced all Apple devices with a Windows gaming computer and Android mobile. Apart from “playing Steam games”, I found TiddlyWiki and found that I could adapt/replace “everything really useful for organising my life” that I used to have on MacOS/iOS.
Accessing a single TiddlyWiki file (research project) in order to introduce it as my tool-of-choice to others joining my project in 2025. I need to try it and assess if it will work with the existing file. I’ve never used node.js — avoiding another learning curve.
Reading your thoughts on how “dropbox” may not work, I wondered if you’ve looked into using Good Reader on iOS? An under-rated app, was an indispensible tool/app for bridging “file access” issues found with other iOS apps. It seemed to provide throughput for almost any file-type.
Hmm… thinking about my current TW use, probably as little as possible or nothing. I would only subscribe (if I had to) for the days/week/month that I need to have access to TW remotely — very rare. In general I work ‘offline’ at home. However, having TW in my pocket out-and-about might mean I use it for other things too in a way that would grow my dependency.
I’m pretty happy using TW via browser offline … BUT I suspect an “app” would make a difference in attracting a broader user base for TW.
As @scott_sauyet said — I really want multi-user abilities.
I have 2 paid subscriptions, period, on my mobile. Bitwarden and Tasks. They’re almost the only reason I have a mobile phone, since I rarely make/receive phone calls. I don’t subscribe to news or social-media or entertainment other than YouTube premium. Everything else I use is free (forever?) courtesy of being an early adopter. I make annual donations to support some of the services I use frequently.
The risk for me? I’ll know more tomorrow. The risk for you? Not sure — would it disenfranchise the open-source community-minded others involved in TW? Is that why there’s been such a mediocre attempt to market TW to a broader audience? The app you’re suggesting may well be a solution that bridges the yawning gap for users capable of customising TW via macros/scripts etc. and those that struggle to grasp the next step or are just too busy. The situation reminds me of Wordpress 1.0 — if you were a webDev at the time, you just rolled your eyes, “Why?” BUT the marketing worked and soon there was a mix of plug-ins etc. free and premium offered by amateurs and professionals alike, and if you weren’t offering to make “wordpress” websites you’d lose clients.
SO I do wonder why you haven’t gone there already? And what happened to Tiddly Desktop? I imagine it’s because your audience (the people who know who “you” are) is mostly made up of people who can already customise themselves. So an app is definitely going to reach a very different audience, people who will range from curious and/or accidental to those who’ve tried things like Obsidian and a host of other “almost a solution” apps that promise and don’t deliver. How are you going to market this app? If you don’t figure that out properly it will be a risk - time/money to keep up the initial presence in the hope of gaining traction as a “new app”. Have you done a lean canvas?
I love TW but I’m always at a loss to convince anyone to actually try it. An App would offer an introduction or demonstration.
So many useful apps price themselves with a huge gap between “professional” use (including “teams”) and their introductory tier. TiddlyWiki empty.html is currently not a shrink-wrap professional or introductory package for non-coders.
I would be, but not on iOS, as my primary platforms are desktop PC (Gnu/Linux) and an Android tablet. In the tablet, I have replaced TW with LogSeq as the use experience is more fluent, and despite offering less customization, it offers the minimal functionality I need: bookmarking videos, as I have no active oligopolic/panoptic GAMMA (Google Apple Microsoft Meta Amazon) account, and taking quick notes. For my tablet usage, LogSeq with its diaries, outlining and video timestamp functionality is pretty much what I need and I wonder if something minimal but already prepackaged could be available.
As discussed in other places, taming the flexibility of TW to offer it bridging the gap between an app and an app development platform is the crux behind TW. This happens also with Smalltalk systems, and some of us are trying to offer a prepackaged experience with, for example, computational notebooks, over the Smalltalk system. In that way some target users can discover the system behind, while being compelled by an experience that has their use case in mind.
I wonder if the mobile app could be an introduction to TW editions, with a customized prepackaged experience that can be customized even more with different resources: plugin collections, TW books like Grok TW and so on.
Firstly to replicate my use case on tablet: quick general notes and particular notes with timestamps on videos, with outlining functionality as a quick way to generate structure without a keyboard at hand (LogSeq provides screen buttons to organize outlines quickly). Secondly I would like to use it as a sync devices with my wikis. For that I’m using now TiddlyHost + my own TiddlyWikiPharo, which allows pretty customizable workflows, including historic backups and synchronization using Fossil (which I prefer over Git). But something without all technical knowledge would be pretty welcomed for several use cases and people I know. Your mobile device as and sync device for your wikis with the possibility to have historic backups in some cloud service is something pretty useful for me and others.
Here I think that Global South issues arise, as the money you spend online usually is needed more in some local business or people you know first hand in your day to day life and usually there is no Global South fee for online services. That being said, I pay for online services, mostly in the form of hosting and Virtual Private Servers that allow me to deploy my online presence and the one of my professional consultancy. Usually I go for the lower fee ($5 USD) and I can deploy serveral servers. Something below that fee with incremental services could be and option, kind of start as low as $1 USD per month for some amount of online storage and services and go up if you want. Beyond developing Free/Libre Open Source Software myself (and understanding the sustainability struggles behind), also I try to contribute with one time donations to the projects I use, so I can help a little bit with their monetary sustainability and mostly with my time, while keeping my expenses open to more pressing local needs.
Synchronization, historic backup and mobile tailored experience, as detailed before.
I don’t pay for apps, except some indie video games, which I rarely play, indie TTRPG, music and books. Most of my monthly pay is related with online hosting (VPS) and yearly domain names. I try to support indie creators with one pay fee (for example I don’t subscribe to Patreon as I want the flexibility to expend in local business/needs) and monthly/yearly payments are related with my professional online presence, which allows me to do some consultancy. By experience, I think that TW is a good consultancy platform, despite the selling being more difficult to do that with other more well positioned React/Angular/Vue/GraphiQL thingies, but you need to fight against their mind share and showcase the unique value proposition behind TW.
Upfront, with a progressive plan (starting with just $1 you get the basics and can go over the that as you need it).
As usual with FL/OSS the risks are related with creating a healthy relationship between a commons economy inside the community and an scarcity economy for outsiders. For me the balance is related with locating where real scarcity is located: servers capacity, development time, and try to create a flexible and progressive enough payment model so people can be compelled to the plan they benefit the most.
