"Nah... not for me" - Why?

[twMat]

@Mark_S yeah that sure would be interesting.

@Mark_S

They might even tell us that we’re doing very well – what objective evidence is there that we’re not?

One thing we could measure more easily is how many community members who have met people “in the wild” who have ever heard of TW. AFAIK, I have never met anyone who has heard of it, not even tech people, and this is in spite of TW having been around for a long time now and it belongs in a very popular “product category”. Contrast this with, say, Evernote which AFAIK is also an independent product in the same product category. If I were to go around and ask who has heard of EverNote I would think quite a few have, and among tech people I’d say it is almost everyone. This anonymity of TW is what I base my impression on, but it is obviously a very, very limited view. Google trends give yet more clues.

Overall, for a project that is about as old as Evernote and Firefox - i.e older than both Chrome and iPhone- i.e stone age old in tech years, and at the same time so fantastic, I think TW is absolutely, and unfortunately, “minimal” for lack of a better word.

[Mark_S]

@twMat

Contrast this with, say, Evernote which AFAIK is also an independent product in the same product category.

Very subjective. There’s probably a whole world of people that haven’t heard of Github. Evernote advertises. It’s been in the news. It raised 20 million in funding (maybe more now). We can’t really make comparisons with products that have an actual marketing machine.

[twMat]

@Mark_S

We can’t really make comparisons with products that have an actual marketing machine.

True. But, tellingly, I can’t think of any non-marketed product to compare it to

On the other hand, it is partly a choice that TW doesn’t have any marketing - and it is not wholly a matter of funding. If e.g Evernote didn’t have any marketing it might have been in the same situation as TW. Or not.

Does anyone know of any open source, “note taking” (or at least productivity) tool, for individuals, that is 15+ years?

[Mark_S]

@twMat

True. But, tellingly, I can’t think of any non-marketed product to compare it to

Joplin.

@twMat

Does anyone know of any open source, “note taking” (or at least productivity) tool, for individuals, that is 15+ years?

Emacs OrgMode (2003), Zim (at least 2010), SimpleNote (2008, not exactly OS, but actually free)

There’s been a lot of note-taking apps that have disappeared or are mostly defunct: Basket (D2010?), KeyNote (D2015?), Treepad, Tomboy (D2017?), Notational Velocity (D2011?).

Other technologies, include OpenSSL (1998), GPG (1999), Linux (1991), GIMP (1995), Python (1991).

[Charlie_Veniot]

@twMat

Does anyone know of any open source, “note taking” (or at least productivity) tool, for individuals, that is 15+ years?

TiddlyWiki is the bomb. To me, nothing touches it for heavy-duty intertwingling and transclusions.

However, there is a small subset of things (strictly hierachical in nature), no intertwingling and no transclusions needed, for which TreeSheets is the bomb. For those few things, to me, nothing touches it. First came out in 2009. Still maintained. Not quite 15 years, but getting close…

A little non-traditional, but I like VYM (View Your Mind) for note-taking in very odd situations. That mind-mapping tool is pretty good. Been around since 2004,

[TiddlyTweeter]

@twMat

@Peter

I thought it was another in a series of self-hostable (running on a server) wikis, and so I didn’t give it a passing eye.

Peter, that is very interesting. So, as it is currently presented, it invites for misunderstanding of what it actually is.

This is a very interesting thread!
I have to think about it. To find a decent way to SAY what some issues may be in a coherent way.

About as far as I got was that the (1) “context of first-engagement” likely matters most; (2) “we lack information” (analytics) to be informed enough to answer basic questions on visit and uptake.

My current two cents,
TT

[Yaisog]

@Mark_S

General location. Timestamp. Repeat visits (I know, not always available). Referral site if possible. Then same for downloads if possible. This would allow us to know how many people are visiting from each approximate country, and a conversion factor (how many people download following a visit).

I load tiddlywiki.com at least twice a day, sometimes even from different computers, to read the docs, without ever clicking the download button. Too many people like me will skew your statistics…

Have a nice day
Yaisog

PS: I’m all for creating an awesome “Welcome” tiddler that looks like what people would expect and that shows off the functionality and power of TW when clicking the Edit button (something all the other sites can not, since they’re not written by the respective tool themselves) – this also means that its WikiText cannot be too advanced.

[TW_Tones]

There was talk of moving doco to the .org that could help with this.

[feedthegood]

I’ll throw in some thoughts.

This is a niche within a niche product. That doesn’t mean it can’t grow more. But, the OP asks why someone would visit then leave. In a nutshell that’s my opinion why… Niche within niche. Which I love. That’s why I’m here. But, I feel like many people settle for a basic notes app, blog, or even pen and paper.

You also must be a little tech savvy to use TiddlyWiki. Not a lot. But, a little. You may think dropping a HTML file somewhere is easy, but even easier is clicking download in an App Store for something else. And there’s no saving intricacies with a free downloaded app.

Those are reasons why “regular users” may not use it. But, maybe you’re wondering how to attract developers? I have no help for you there. I don’t know what developers look for when deciding to contribute to these projects.

To overcome the above “regular users” problems, as others have said, a clearer landing page could help. Maybe both visually and textually hammering home that this amazing tool is one file. And showing that you can just drop it on your desktop. And, that your notes are forever your notes. Unlike if an online app gets hacked or goes out of business. Then after some eye catching things like that, go into the explanation such as what is currently there at tiddlywiki.com.

Personally, the number one reason I come back to TiddlyWiki time and time again is because I feel like a single file is more likely to store my thoughts longer than some other app. Again, there’s no company going out of business or risk of getting hacked (well, less of a chance especially if kept offline). And in a worse case scenario, if I have to sell all of my processions, hopefully I can at least keep a USB drive with my TiddlyWiki on it.

[mwiktowy]

My thoughts having tried to be an advocate of TiddlyWiki in the workplace … these are not necessarily “fixable” but they are deterrents:

1. When people see an “html” file, they do not immediately thing “locally editable document format”. They think, “web-server needed and read-only”.
2. TiddlyWiki is such a wide-open, multi-functional tool that people with the least amount of agoraphobia or analysis paralysis will run away screaming back to their one-true-path/walled-garden sanctuaries.
3. There are plenty of footguns present in building/configuring a TiddlyWiki … particularly when you are messing with SystemTags/ViewTemplates. Maybe these are not encountered as quickly as the OP scenario laid out but they would certainly lead to rage-quiting TiddlyWiki if it leads to data-loss. Something as easy as a mis-type in the config panel could render your TiddlyWiki useless if it is saved that way.

But, as I said, these are not necessary fixable but maybe some more bumpers and guide-rails could be added.

[TW_Tones]

@mwiktowy

When people see an “html” file, they do not immediately

I have suggested, and implemented for myself an alternative the .tw file extension. You then create an association with the browser, And set your browser to recognise it. No distracting html but it is one.

• The next issue is allowing an exchangeable form to be shared.
• No real suitable forms here in discourse for example.

[Justin_H]

While having a unique file extension would remedy the issue related to the stigma behind the .html, it would also create more steps for a novice user to go through in order to use the application.

Maybe if we included in the basic summary of what TiddlyWiki is about the nature of what a hypertext markup language file actually is, but ELI5 it, it would be an all around improvement?

Something along the lines of, “This is TiddlyWiki, an all purpose, flexible dynamic notetaking app, all in a simple html file. Copy and Paste it to your hearts content! Anything that has a browser, has TiddlyWiki support.”

Or something to that degree? I’m no expert at selling an idea to users unfortunately haha

[Mario]

Hi folks,
The “bumpy” start of the thread has been “moderated” in consensus with jonnie45 and twMat. 3 related posts from others, that where out of context have been removed too.
-m

[heliam]

@DaveGifford

one for notetakers, one for productivity people, one for programmer types, one for people who want to use it for statistics and databases, etc. The tutorials in each could be aimed directly at each group.

I think this would help a lot with getting over the learning curve, as well as having some more general examples. Right now the top two examples on tiddlywiki.com are an online shop and Gospel Bubbles, both which are very specific uses that do immediately show me the range that TW can cover but leave me wondering, “ok, but where do I get started on just organizing some notes?”

[TW_Tones]

This Topic has once again got my “creative juice’s flowing” (I love and hate that phrase with equal measure). First and foremost is a growing meme I have heard building of late;

• Nah, Nah, Yeah - which actually seems like a good retort to the Topics title
• The other is the creative writers challenge to try and encapsulate what TiddlyWiki is and can be to anyone.
  • The First phrase that comes to mind is the “Goodies” catch phrase “Do Anything, Anytime, Anywhere”, But this demands trust even before someone is given the evidence it is true.

So lets return to the Topics title;

"Nah… not for me” - Why?

• it is perhaps impossible to tackle the “negative” when it appears impossible to even describe the “positive”, “why tiddlywiki is for you!”
• We have the further problem that TiddlyWiki’s possibilities, are effectively infinite in so many different directions. How do you describe the infinite?
• There are as many reasons to use tiddlywiki as there are people who could use tiddlywiki.
• Then some may think in such cases, well lets describe it by "what it can’t do?, “what is it not?”
  • Beyond the obvious ,such as it can’t make you a coffee or your bed, there is very little it can’t do, and when it’s limits are found the community works to eliminate them.

Off line I am writing for the nth[?] time yet another way to try and capture TiddlyWiki’s true nature and spell it out in a way that the TiddlyWiki naïve will want to learn more.

Perhaps we need to start a (separate) topic which asks “You all” to write a convincing argument for TiddlyWiki for the uninitiated?

• Please thumbs up this reply if you want to see this.

[Mya]

To confirm the marketing issue: thrice in the last 15 years or so I seriously looked into notetaking apps (aiming for no vendor lock in, ability for zettelkasten/backlinks, and agreeable UI on phone and desktop), but only now learn of TW. And I’d rate my search skills perhaps not detective-worthy but above average for sure.
(I was gobsmacked when I read TW has been around for so many years already!)
Also, without having found the forum before, the very few YouTube tutorials made me wonder whether TW was ‘still a thing’ until I came here / checked some dates and realized it’s alive and kicking.
My guess would be there’s also the other bottleneck of less tech savvy persons leaving before downloading / trying TW - most comments made on the landing page and the way information is presented are painfully / reassuringly recognizable

[coderofsalvation]

Just some feedback from a new (few weeks old) user (maybe Im repeating somebody else’s comment):

• onboarding: great, tiddlywiki.com tells it all (especially the big download button)
• interaction: great forum
• community resources: lots of plugins, really inspiring tiddlywiki variations

So everything was great so far, but the ‘community’-examples quickly started to make me feel stupid…or at least that a big learning-curve was ahead

I started longing for some kind of hierarchical list of ‘how to do X’-links, to guide me as a new user (customizing/understanding my vanilla tiddlywiki).

Luckily, I (accidentally) discovered (after some weeks) that this exist in the ‘Content’-tab in the sidebar.
I know, it’s a bit stupid…but lets assume most people are stupid and are in a rush when reviewing new technology
I think it would really give new users ‘Oh I can do this’-confidence if the ‘Content’-tab would always be shown by default on the homepage.
Before I discovered this menu, I got a bit intimidated by the idea of learning everything from forum-posts.

Just my few cents!

ps. thank you all, you are awesome