Money -- Open Source & TW

[TiddlyTweeter]

@Tiddlybob

I’m not sure what the best solution is to maintain TiddlyWiki’s “magic” of being unrestrictive, while also compensating the developers for their hard work.

Exactly that. ACKNOWLEDGE somehow.

@Tiddlybob

Maybe we could make donation goals and improve the visibility of the initiative?

Right. RECOMPENSE somehow.

How, practically, I dunno. But at least get an agenda for it …?

Best TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

@anon5541130

In my case, I agree to disagree with your opinion.

What is my opinion you disagree with?

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

@anon5541130

For example, tiddlywiki is a great product/service - but that doesn’t mean I’ll donate if I want to.

Right. The TW is a good yet donation is elusive.

Why is that?

TT

[TiddlyTweeter]

@anon5541130

There are several worldviews

Right. As Marx wrote: "It is absolutely impossible to transcend the laws of nature. What can change in historically different circumstances is only the form in which these laws expose themselves.”

[boris]

Roughly, this is how open source communities work. There is no cost for sharing the bits of code with open licenses. The cost is people’s time for development, documentation, maintenance, and community.

There are many people here contributing unheard of amounts of time troubleshooting and feature scripts and the many other tweaks and optimizations. Most open source communities I have seen don’t have this volume of output of solutions – this speaks to the “end user programmability” of TW.

A much smaller group of people are spending time running the community / sorting the Github issues / writing code.

The talking we had done earlier around open collective, and my sort of thought process, was “what if a set of community contributions equalled one more half-time developer”, as an example goal, who could work with Jeremy on code centric issues.

The current “bank account” for TiddlyWiki in Open Collective is currently just over $1000USD → TiddlyWikiDotOrg - Open Collective

The cost of running Talk TW is about $60 / month, or $1200 annually – so we aren’t even covering costs yet. I’ve been paying this and haven’t expensed it yet, and probably what I’ll do is make a donation for the past year. Jeremy has also offered to pay the cost for this directly.

This is all a very complicated discussion, but mostly it means volunteering and taking responsibility for things and driving them forward, beyond just discussion.

My hypothesis would be, is that if a group of people took responsibility for promoting, marketing, and supporting TW donations, that we could get to break even for the infrastructure … and then work on other goals.

[anon5541130]

@TiddlyTweeter

Why is that?

@TiddlyTweeter

Let’s go some reasons

1. I don’t want
2. I don’t need to - there’s nothing in the mit, gpl etc licenses that forces someone to pay something
3. I only pay if I want to
4. there are no laws in any country that control my individual decision to donate money to some software, software is work tools that’s all
5. ‘I can be making money from tiddlywiki courses’, this does not force me to donate something to tiddlywiki
6. I can be an end user and not a developer, so I don’t need to pay a donation to the project

So…

1. I can have several reasons - all these reasons don’t affect the value of tiddlywiki, value is one thing, price is another.
2. Just because something is open doesn’t mean it won’t be paid for, but it also doesn’t mean it should be paid for.

3. Do you want to force someone to pay something?
   1. make a closed source project. but know that money not something fixed and unchanging
   2. open source with restrictions like open core, technical training program, etc. but know that donations are not something fixed and unchanging
   3. foss code. but know that donations are not something fixed and unchanging

4. In all these cases, it must have value and not just a price
5. See? the representation, the value? value is something of representation. It has nothing to do with knowledge directly, not even the amount of work you do. It’s a perception of reality that people have of you.
6. So… In my case, although this perception has several criteria… there are several social, philosophical, cultural criteria, etc. In my case… to be a programmer I did: ‘courses’, ‘I participate in projects of various types’, ‘I created my software’, ‘I work as a freelancer’ etc. - that doesn’t make me better or worse than anyone else, only I have the perception of being a programmer.
7. You can use this same definition/concept for paid, foss, open source software. So… Why do people use tiddlywiki? - This type of question gives some insights into how to provide money to tiddlywiki as I mentioned here: UX/Product questions

[boris]

LogSeq is open source. They have received investment funding. They have an OpenCollective where you can donate $15 / month.

I don’t know their exact plans, but yes, I expect them to likely have some mobile synching as a commercial offering.

And: absolutely things could be locked behind a paywall with TW, if someone decides to make a commercial offering around it. In fact, the Quine app for Apple devices is $5 one time fee ‎Quine on the App Store – I’m a very happy paid user of this. I’d happily pay a subscription to the dev if it included some different sync options.

LogSeq and TW both share that the core product has an open source license that anyone can use and re-use as needed. So whether TW or LogSeq, other developers, commercial users, or end users can continue to use it in different ways.

(TiddlyBob – this was a super useful tidbit to share – thank you!)

[TiddlyTweeter]

@boris

My hypothesis would be, is thaOPt if a group of people took responsibility for promoting, marketing, and supporting TW donations, that we could get to break even for the infrastructure … and then work on other goals.

Right. I do see what YOU contributed. My OP was not so much about helping open source work better, rather about giving back to the folk who sweat for us everyday already.

[TiddlyTweeter]

@anon5541130

1. I can have several reasons - all these reasons don’t affect the value of tiddlywiki, value is one thing, price is another.

2. Just because something is open doesn’t mean it won’t be paid for, but it also doesn’t mean it should be paid for.

3. Do you want to force someone to pay something?

4. make a closed source project. but know that money not something fixed and unchanging

5. open source with restrictions like open core, technical training program, etc. but know that donations are not something fixed and unchanging

6. foss code. but know that donations are not something fixed and unchanging

7. In all these cases, it must have value and not just a price

Hey, do your thought experiments but not on my time.

WHAT is your outcome?

[anon5541130]

@TiddlyTweeter

WHAT is your outcome?

my contribution is here:

1. community money (members)

• paid synchronization service
• paid mobile apps
• GitHub sponsorship
• plugin/theme competitions with prize money (from donations)
• Another way is to be a tiddlywiki consultant and earn money teaching how to use tiddlywiki - unlike the video courses I mentioned. Tiddlywiki consultant would be someone on the technical team registered to perform this role/position. “Bitwarden has several roles so that Bitwarden is something community and at the same time paid for companies as frontend, backend, designers, engineers etc.”

2. money outside the community (stackholders)

• Monthly/annual donation for plugins it you create, develop and/or keep
• Monthly/annual donation for themes you create, develop and/or keep
• Another way would be a commercial partnership with a company to develop exclusive themes or plugins and earn some money from it.
• Another way would be if tiddlwiki adopted a business model like open-core, part of the code was community and part of the code was closed. Closing here would just be themes, customizations, plugins and specialized technical support like GitHub, Bitwarden etc.
• Offer courses on how to use tiddlywiki, these courses you can create on Youtube or any social network in order to earn money with a tool as tiddlywiki.

3. money invested in the community (investors, companies)

• Integration with plugins, themes for companies
• crowdfunding: you get profits if the community grows and hires more people, developers, volunteers

[anon5541130]

@anon5541130

money outside the community (stackholders)

In that sense, I’m part of the people who are interested in tiddlywiki ‘stackholders’ - but I’m not a member of the tiddlywiki community and neither am I the company.

[TiddlyTweeter]

… Meanwhile I listen to a Gandalf mix …

Gandalf Sax Guy 10 Hours HD

[anon5541130]

@TiddlyTweeter @boris @Tiddlybob @Mark_S So… an idea

@anon5541130

So… In my case, although this perception has several criteria… there are several social, philosophical, cultural criteria, etc. In my case… to be a programmer I did: ‘courses’, ‘I participate in projects of various types’, ‘I created my software’, ‘I work as a freelancer’ etc. - that doesn’t make me better or worse than anyone else, only I have the perception of being a programmer.

1. What makes a person a member of tiddlywiki is the donation they submit, tech support they do or the specializations they do. This is the value(representation) of a tiddly - person who works on tiddlywiki.
2. So… I’m a non-tiddly, person interested in tiddlywiki(the tool and not the community)
3. People interested in the community and the tool would be members or tiddly. People only interested in the tool or only in the community - are they companies or are they non-tiddlys like me.

concept

Here is the definition I created

• tiddly:

@anon5541130

community money (members)

• paid synchronization service
• paid mobile apps
• GitHub sponsorship
• plugin/theme competitions with prize money (from donations)
• Another way is to be a tiddlywiki consultant and earn money teaching how to use tiddlywiki - unlike the video courses I mentioned. Tiddlywiki consultant would be someone on the technical team registered to perform this role/position. “Bitwarden has several roles so that Bitwarden is something community and at the same time paid for companies as frontend, backend, designers, engineers etc.”

• non-tiddly

@anon5541130

money outside the community (stackholders)

• Monthly/annual donation for plugins it you create, develop and/or keep
• Monthly/annual donation for themes you create, develop and/or keep
• Another way would be a commercial partnership with a company to develop exclusive themes or plugins and earn some money from it.
• Another way would be if tiddlwiki adopted a business model like open-core, part of the code was community and part of the code was closed. Closing here would just be themes, customizations, plugins and specialized technical support like GitHub, Bitwarden etc.
• Offer courses on how to use tiddlywiki, these courses you can create on Youtube or any social network in order to earn money with a tool as tiddlywiki.

• partial-tiddly:

@anon5541130

money invested in the community (investors, companies)

• Integration with plugins, themes for companies
• crowdfunding: you get profits if the community grows and hires more people, developers, volunteers

Why?

1. We can offer a rewards program for each type of person, for example if they are a member of tiddlywiki they can get discounts on courses, training programs etc.
2. This increases the value (perception) and price of tiddlywiki.
3. BugBounty - Get rewarded for finding technical bugs on tiddlywiki.(non-tiddly)
4. Members of tiddly and partial-tiddly can vote on resources, we can participate in technical discussions, we will ask for resources.
5. my concept follows this line of thought:

@boris

My hypothesis would be, is thaOPt if a group of people took responsibility for promoting, marketing, and supporting TW donations, that we could get to break even for the infrastructure … and then work on other goals.

6. What I am clearly proposing here is to generate a need for consumption of tiddlywiki as software and also to generate a need for scarcity so that people think they are members of tiddly and those who really want to be.
7. Concept 1

• Whoever finances it is a partial-tiddly. plan tiddly-commercial
• Anyone who promotes is a non-tiddly. plan tiddly-business
• Who supports, is tiddly. plan tiddly-community

8. Concept 2: volunteers (you can call these people tiddly members, tiddly), non-volunteers (you can call these people non-tiddly or non-volunteers or stakeholders), interested in tiddlywiki (you can call these people companies, business partners or partially-tiddly)

[anon5541130]

@anon5541130

Do you want to force someone to pay something?

I spoke here ironically, that is, to emphasize that we should look for ways to have money for tiddlywiki

[Tiddlybob]

@boris

LogSeq is open source. They have received investment funding. They have an OpenCollective where you can donate $15 / month.

I understand that it’s open source, but from what I’ve read, the developers are planning to hold back some local-only features as well (https://docs.logseq.com/#/page/62f130a6-30cc-4606-a588-2c85ad48ede3). I know that could happen to TW as well, but I have pretty good faith that it won’t.

@boris

In fact, the Quine app for Apple devices is $5 one time fee ‎Quine on the App Store – I’m a very happy paid user of this. I’d happily pay a subscription to the dev if it included some different sync options.

I agree, I would definitely pay for a mobile app with sync options (if I had an iOS device). I feel like that is a proper way to monetize. The thing that makes me uneasy with LogSeq is that it seems like they are impeding development of the core product to generate revenue.

@boris

(TiddlyBob – this was a super useful tidbit to share – thank you!)

No problem!

[boris]

@Tiddlybob

I agree, I would definitely pay for a mobile app with sync options (if I had an iOS device). I feel like that is a proper way to monetize. The thing that makes me uneasy with LogSeq is that it seems like they are impeding development of the core product to generate revenue.

This is a known open source model called “open core” – where some features are under a different license or access, which then funds the further development and maintenance of the whole thing.

Interesting to hear your perception of “proper” way to monetize. I actually wish Quine was $5/month, since that I would make me feel secure that the app can continue to be maintained! I really should talk to Chris Hunt, I don’t think he’s on here in TW Talk yet?

[anon5541130]

@boris

This is a known open source model called “open core” – where some features are under a different license or access, which then funds the further development and maintenance of the whole thing.

I talked about it here too

“Another way would be if tiddlwiki adopted a business model like open-core, part of the code was community and part of the code was closed. Closing here would just be themes, customizations, plugins and specialized technical support like GitHub, Bitwarden etc.”

So…

• Key-values:
  • ‘open-source’,
  • ‘ease’,
  • ‘tool integration’
  • ‘technical support’
  • ‘open-data’
  • ‘open-knowledge’
  • ‘security’
  • ‘privacy’ … etc (we have to focus on one of these pillars)

vision

[Tiddlybob]

“Proper” may not have been the best word choice haha. I’m not saying that it’s right or wrong, I just meant that the model is not as attractive to me.

There’s a fine line, at least in my view, between providing an extra service (e.g. synching) and placing restrictions. I could create a TW file that my grandkids could read one day and not worry about any restrictions on features.

[anon5541130]

@TiddlyTweeter

That is what my OP is about! It seems people who do so much work just get no money back?

To try get the issue on “TW Open Source” in focus … WHY aren’t we at least Moderately Commercial?

great point of view and everything I said has this doubt.

[anon5541130]

@Tiddlybob

There’s a fine line, at least in my view, between providing an extra service (e.g. synching) and placing restrictions. I could create a TW file that my grandkids could read one day and not worry about any restrictions on features.

@Tiddlybob So… If the file format is open, there is no problem for you to open and read the file. tiddlywiki has the open format, this shouldn’t be a problem.