King James Bible Wiki

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#16

I use the timestamp fields a lot - especially important if keeping a history of tiddler changes, if have a lot of transcluded tiddlers - can use a filter to select when the trancluded tiddler was modified which helps in debugging why tiddler that transcludes it - is broke.

Some tiddlers are time sensitive - updating data from an external source using http request.

Ultimately TiddlyWiki - " You can think of tiddlywiki as a database in which the records are tiddlers." - see https://tiddlywiki.com/static/Filters.html . It is normal practice for databases to timestamp records.

#17

But don’t they still get a modified date on change, or do they need to have timestamps already? To me these are data tiddlers that usually would never get changed.

Sure, but in this case, the relevant dates look more like 1000 BCE, 90 AD, or perhaps 1611 AD. :slight_smile:

Right. If you hadn’t seen it, I started a discussion on another recent project to help document this.

Yes, but in space-constrained locations like TWs, “normal practice” still needs to be justified. If you’re never going to use it, why take up memory and user attention with unnecessary fields?

I’m sorry; the above sounds argumentative. I really don’t mean to be. Now that I stop and think about this habit for myself, I found that I can’t see the reasons. Thank you for sharing yours.

#18

Sounds like blasphemy

#19

Thanks @Scott_Sauyet for putting this together! In addition to everything else, it seems like a nice dataset for testing and demonstrating TiddlyWiki. Such as the mws, as mentioned above, and perhaps the books can be put into plugins to demonstrate how plugins can carry contents

When I get time, it would also be interesting to see if the liturgy and the texts of the Mass would fit in a TiddlyWiki - the shifting and reuse of text seems like an excellent task for TiddlyWiki. Maybe even the Liturgy of the Hours. The multilingual aspect is also an interesting challenge to demonstrate the power of TiddlyWiki

1 Like
#20

:slight_smile:
I should use the creator/modifier field!

#21

I’ve created a new version.

The new wiki is at

http://scott.sauyet.com/Tiddlywiki/Demo/KingJamesBible/v3/

Supporting material is in:

http://scott.sauyet.com/Tiddlywiki/Demo/KingJamesBible/v3//sources

and the code that generates the tiddlers from their raw form is at:

http://link.sauyet.com/kjv3.

(I may look to move this to GitHub Pages for future releases; I haven’t decided.)

There are two changes.

First, I fix the problem with what seemed to me an inappropriately written template, as described in #10170. I’m no longer generating wikitext from my templates and then calling wikify on it.

Second, I add hooks for CSS styling. Now the generated HTML for a chapter looks something like this:

<div class="chapter">
<!--        ^^^^^^^^                     -->
  <p>
    <span class="verse">
<!--             ^^^^^                   -->
      <sup class="verse-number"><a class="tc-tiddlylink tc-tiddlylink-resolves" href="#Genesis%201%3A1">1</a></sup>
<!--v             ^^^^^^^^^^^^           -->
      <span class="text">In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.</span>
<!--               ^^^^                  -->
    </span>
  
    <span class="verse">
      <sup class="verse-number"><a class="tc-tiddlylink tc-tiddlylink-resolves" href="#Genesis%201%3A2">2</a></sup>
      <span class="text">And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness <em>was</em> upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.</span>
    </span> 
  </p>

  <p>
    <span class="verse">
      <sup class="verse-number"><a class="tc-tiddlylink tc-tiddlylink-resolves" href="#Genesis%201%3A3">3</a></sup>
      <span class="text">And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.</span>
    </span>
  
    <span class="verse">
      <sup class="verse-number"><a class="tc-tiddlylink tc-tiddlylink-resolves" href="#Genesis%201%3A4">4</a></sup>
      <span class="text">And God saw the light, that <em>it was</em> good: and God divided the light from the darkness.</span>
    </span>
  
    <span class="verse">
      <sup class="verse-number"><a class="tc-tiddlylink tc-tiddlylink-resolves" href="#Genesis%201%3A5">5</a></sup>
      <span class="text">And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.</span>
    </span>
  </p>
  <!--  ...  -->
</div>

Now on to get better templates for verses and books!

3 Likes
#22

Actually, reflecting on you potential reasons here for tucking the text into a more obscure field (even though I continue to discourage that approach) … perhaps there should be some way in which all the actual KJV text content should live in shadow tiddlers… so that if someone accidentally mangles a verse in edit mode (or starts adding their commentary inline, bypassing the notes field), or deletes a chapter tiddler, etc. the solution recovers very easily.

I don’t understand the technical details of how shadows work, especially when you would not want the core content bogged down with system-name-space complexity… but worth checking into, perhaps?

If someone does want to mess with the text field of a verse (say, to make what they consider a translation correction), then this kind of edit should count as something like overwriting a shadow, no?

[@Scott_Sauyet , I initially posted this comment at your other thread, but I just moved it here, since it’s really not about that nested transclusion topic, but rather about best practice for a text that has a not-really-user-editable archival character.)

#23

Two more thoughts about notes and user markup (for this and any other text has canonical version, and that is heavily commented):

It might make sense not to put the notes in a verse-specific (or chapter-specific) tiddler within a notes field.

Multiple reasons:

(1) Notes may correspond to a range (such as the set of verses corresponding to a paragraph — and you don’t have tiddlers for paragraph, though you could…), and may also be comparative in less local ways. Instead of a “compare to [[link here]] passage” located at one tiddler, a thematic "look at differences among [[this]] and [[that]] and [[the other]]" would not be tied to any one of them, but would be displayed on a view template that looks for backlinks (or the notes tiddlers have a field for verse details, etc.)

(2) relating to the shadow-tiddler issue: restoring-to-shadow would delete notes, but you might want something like a restore-kjv-content-to-shadow to be available without losing user notes.

Another thought: this is a case where some tool for semantic highlighting might really be in demand. How to store the highlighting info, toggle display on and off, assign colors and other style info, and make something like a user-configurable semantic key for the various classes involved…? Highlights, like textual notes, may ultimately deserve their own tiddler with metadata (highlighted when, by what user, with what semantic class…)

This also might be a case where something like the keywords plugin — that holds the keywords outside of the target tiddlers (sorry I can’t find it here) — would be a natural fit.

Of course, @Scott_Sauyet, this shouldn’t turn into a “no good deed goes unpunished” adventure… You might not want to tackle any of this yourself! But thinking about a showcase edition, it strikes me that there are many texts (including some in my academic field) that attract close reading, where your KJV project can illustrate best design practices for holding canonical content alongside user marks/notes.

Especially ambitious reach for future project embellishment: canonical text structural tiddlers can toggle display between different translations, or show them side by side. :open_mouth:

#24

@Scott_Sauyet - I’m not sure which of your “bible wiki” threads to post this is so I’m posting it here as it seems to be the most general one.

I just wanted to share a cool scrolling feature here (i.e the solution there by Timani Afif). I’m thinking that the reader of such a huge text would benefit from seeing a “hierarchical position” where he’s at, by “stacking” the heading levels like illustrated there.

Just an idea.

1 Like
#25

I haven’t decided whether I want to do that or not, but I can do so easily enough.

This is not a wiki for me; my Christian days were long ago. Ideally it’s not much of a wiki itself. I want it to work well enough as a readable bible. But I want the Verse, Chapter, and Book tiddlers to be as useful as possible for users to build their own Bible-related tools. And I would like to get it to the point where the same techniques could work for other translations of the Bible.

I do understand this reasonably well. You don’t need system-name-space in plugins; any old titles work. My Periodic Table demo keeps the Element and Compound tiddlers in plugins (hence as shadow tiddlers) and they have names like Nickel and Aspirin But they have no text fields, so I don’t know how searchable they are, if at all. The answer to that may help me decide whether to extract plugins here.

Agreed. But I’m not going to try to take this that far, at least for the moment. And the same with the semantic highlighting. I think both would be useful, and I might want to create a wiki incorporating those ideas, if for no other reason then as a learning exercise. I would hope this could be the basis for that. But I only want it to be the basis.

I do that to myself all the time. I don’t need you piling on, Springer! :laughing: 1

That could be very powerful. I think for the current text, we’d probably have to limit it to a single Biblical Book. The whole Bible might be too large. Or perhaps this would be a good candidate for Jeremy’s MWS.

1 I really, really hope that came through as the joke it was meant to be.

#26

Yes, this is the general one. The other two were for specific questions to help with what’s under discussion here. From my perspective, one is finished, and the other will be as soon as I can post a new version and a wrap-up thread.

That is very cool. I’ve never seen such a simple web demo of that idea, although my code editor, VSCode, is doing that now for nested contexts. I could also imagine a single sticky header that shows the hierarchy as breadcrumbs. That might be harder to do, though; I’ve never tried to work with scroll behavior in TW.

This is all in the later-if-ever category for me, though. I just want the basics working well at the moment.

Thank you very much!

1 Like
#27

With a great deal of help from much of the TW braintrust in #10177, I have created a new version that allows you to read entire books of the Bible in one tiddler. The new version is at

http://fourwindssoft.com/scott/Tiddlywiki/Demo/KingJamesBible/v4/

The supporting material is there as well, in /sources, but nothing there only a little has changed this version.

I have one more thing I really want to do before I call it done for now: Psalms needs distinct formatting. The paragraph layout from the other chapters simply doesn’t cut it. Moreover there is some missing Psalm metadata (the inscriptions above them in most versions) that I will need to source from elsewhere.

Are there other features/fixes you think it really should have to serve as a baseline wiki? Keep in mind that my goal is to have something others can build off of. I’m not trying to create the definitive Bible wiki. Are there other things that would really help in that endeavor?

#28

Cool stuff!

I (like you, it seems) am just generally intrigued by the idea to be able to do this so I’m thinking there are many other texts that would also benefit from this treatment; obvious examples would be other holy books but also “the law” (for all jurisdictions of the world, so that’s probably even more than holy books), and there are probably encyclopedias that are very hierarchical, etc, etc. Maybe the Odessey and the Iliad? My point is, apropos “something others can build off of”, that if it somehow was an “engine” that people feed their long texts and specify their various markers for chapters/paragraphs/headings/whatever, then it would be a generally useful tool based on TW. Just an idea.

Regardless, cool stuff!

#29

That’s very interesting. I certainly hadn’t conceived of it that way at all, but I do see the possibilities. It would probably not involve any shared code from this wiki, but might have some significant shared ideas.

For years I’ve been contemplating having a go at the Connecticut General Statutes, which have a hot mess of gigantic HTML files, cross-linked all over the place in a hierarchy of Volume > Title > Chapter > Section. Besides their main text, sections usually have metadata such as sources, references, history, annotations, and cross-reference, denoted chiefly by text color! The main text can be broken up into subsections, paragraphs, (nested) list items. and more. I’ve thought of many ways to present this information better. A few times I’ve actually started, but I get stymied every time by the initial extraction of the basic information. These days, I keep contemplating it, thinking of course of using TW to do it. But this would be much more complex than the Bible, and probably a lot larger. (I think the 13 Volumes initially referred to physical bound volumes, none of them small.

That could use a lot of the same discipline that has gone into this King James wiki Who knows? Maybe one day I’ll pick it up again.

In any case, that’s some tasty food for thought. Thanks for sharing!

2 Likes
#30

Just for yuks, given the question by @Deniz, I copied your KJV wiki, added the freelinks plugin, and a view template like this:

<<list-links filter:"[tag[Verse]] :filter[search<storyTiddler>]">>

I then specified, in freelinks settings, that there should be freelinks pointing to any tiddler title where the tiddler is tagged “theme”.

I proceeded to make tiddlers (tagged “theme”) with titles like judgment, forgiveness, damnation, glory, satan, rejoice, Lord… And a user with serious interest in these themes could use the text field of that tiddler to reflect on connections or confusions, etc. But just the extra view template made these “theme” tiddlers into informative hubs.

Performance was not as slow as I feared! Certainly it was slower than without freelinks, and when freelinks was first loaded (before I tweaked settings) it was very sluggish. With the narrower conditions, freelinks was usable.

I see freelinks as an especially relevant tool for a canonical text, because you really don’t want to be altering the text itself to add hard links.

The list-links view template, combined with freelinks, has a nice combined effect: you can make a tiddler for any string, immediately see links to each verse that contains the title string, and then — if you click the link — you see your string of interest (plus any others that you’ve tagged as “theme”) nicely highlighted with a link to the theme’s “hub” tiddler.

(At this point, the view template searches for the string only as a literal string (whether or not it’s a whole word) and there’s no wider net for variations on the word. Meanwhile freelinks works only on whole-word appearances of the string, which means a verse mentioning “meekness” renders without any freelink to “meek” even though the “meek” theme tiddler offers links in the other direction, etc. A more thorough solution would try to address all this. But my interest here was simply to get a reality check on how freelinks performs with a text-heavy wiki like this one.)

2 Likes
List and link all tiddlers that contain the current tiddlers' title in their text
#31

Fascinating! I look forward to try it out… when I get a minute free. Getting back involved in electoral politics during a presidential election year is time- consuming.

While I’m sure I could follow your steps above, I’ve never used Freelinks. Is this something you can post somewhere?

#32

It’s one of the official plugins! Just find it where you find good ruston(-et-al)-vetted stuff like BibTex, CodeMirror, Comments, Internals, MenuBar…, and now the Tour and Confetti plugins:

image
image1506×960 109 KB

#33

:slight_smile:

Sorry. The bit about Freelinks was simply that I hadn’t used it, so following your steps might take a bit more work. I was hoping you could post your Bible version, not Freelinks.

But mostly I was trying to avoid doing any more work during my busy evening. I’ll try it myself when I can.

#34

Oops :rofl: Here’s a version hastily uploaded to tiddlyhost: https://minimalist-test-mode.tiddlyhost.com/

2 Likes
#35

Thank you so much @Scott_Sauyet for your bible and @Springer for this very nice addition making this bible TW so much more useful.
This has been a very interesting thread, so much to learn from. I love it.

2 Likes