External links from field values: is this state of the art?

[TW_Tones]

When you said;

@Scott_Sauyet

I feel as though I should be able to do this simply in wikitext without resorting to a macro, but I can’t find any way to do it.

Were you then referring to;

@Scott_Sauyet

Here it was a single template (applied to multiple tiddlers)

That is wikitext in a template?

• If so it is in some ways a different question.

Because in a way using a template is reusable code, just as macros are (and can include macros).

If this is the case;

• Then we want to write wikitext that refers to the current tiddler. It is hard coded in the template, not the tiddler.

You can use this directly in the “view” and other templates;

<a href={{!!wikipedia-link}} class="tc-tiddlylink-external">More info from wikipedia</a>

• The current tiddler is implied before the !!

or this

<$list filter="[all[current]has[wikipedia-link]]" variable=~>
   <a href={{!!wikipedia-link}} class="tc-tiddlylink-external">More info from wikipedia</a>
</$list>

or just {{!!wikipedia-link}}

and other forms,

@Scott_Sauyet

The hardest problem is to remember to avoid thinking of macros as functions.

• What do you mean by this? I don’t seem to have this problem. “macros is macros”.

There are many ways and tangents to answering your initial topic, with all due respect, I suspect you are missing a particular concept, or cognitive model (or I am about your words ).

• I faced a number of these cognitive hurdles learning tiddlywiki myself. Once overcome they are incorporated into your thinking and you forget they were ever an issue. So they are hard to “share” with others.
  • If we can document these they would be “documentation gold”.

[Brian_Radspinner]

Grok TiddlyWiki goes over a few different way to create external links:

• Pretty Wikipedia Link

• Wikify Wikipedia Link

• Wikipedia Link Snippet

• Wikipedia Link Template

• Wikipedia Link Without Macro

Most can be tweaked to incorporate a field to provide part of, or the entirety of, a web address.

Edit:
If you are just looking for a simple bit of wikitext in a ViewTemplate that includes a field value in an external link you can try this:

[Charlie_Veniot]

Just in case it is of any use.

These are my Wikipedia links embedded in my tiddlers:

{{Control_flow||tWm}}

(“Control_flow” is not a tiddler. It is just part of the url used by the template to create the link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_flow.)

The tWm template tiddler:

The result:

[Charlie_Veniot]

@Scott_Sauyet

The hardest problem is to remember to avoid thinking of macros as functions. It’s a terribly easy mistake.

No kidding it is an easy thing to forget.

Think of a macro reference (don’t think of it as a “macro call”) as a meta-programming instruction (a pre-rendering instruction) to replace the reference with the snippet of text defined by that macro.

It is just a form of transclusion that is almost like a “mail merge.” The snippet of text defined by the macro is like a standard form letter, and the parameters are like the individual addresses.

That helps me get my thinking straight. I sure hope it doesn’t confuse the daylights out of anybody else !

[Scott_Sauyet]

@Charlie_Veniot

@Scott_Sauyet

The hardest problem is to remember to avoid thinking of macros as functions. It’s a terribly easy mistake.

No kidding it is an easy thing to forget.

Think of a macro reference (don’t think of it as a “macro call”) as a meta-programming instruction (a pre-rendering instruction) to replace the reference with the snippet of text defined by that macro.

Right, I know that intellectually, but I still continually want them to act like functions, and for wikitext to act like a programming language when it’s really a (very sophisticated) markup language. I’ll get there eventually, I’m sure, but it sometimes seems frustratingly slow.

I’ve heard enough other discussions here to know that this seems to be a common problem with programmers learning TW. I get that, but it doesn’t really ease the pain.

Thanks for your reply. It’s good to know others have gone through this too.

[Charlie_Veniot]

More in line with the OP:

(You can see the final results at BAM Docs — User Guide and Programming Reference for BASIC Anywhere Machine.)

In the URL, I only put the “book” part of the URL. “IA::” indicates the book is at the Internet Archive.

The {{||tBib}} transclusion will show the title of the book followed by a little link to the Internet Archive (or whatever source; at the moment, I’m only linking to the internet archive).

The tBib template tiddler (Some of my tiddler titles have suffixes which I precede with a unicode “#” character. I filter out that suffix for displaying.)

[Scott_Sauyet]

@Brian_Radspinner

Grok TiddlyWiki goes over a few different way to create external links:

It was reviewing GTW that made me switch to a macro when other things weren’t working.

The trouble is that this was simple enough to do, but I was expecting something simpler still, and when that didn’t work, it seems like I overshot.

Tony’s suggestion of

<a class="tc-tiddlylink-external" href={{!!wikipedia-link}} rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">
  wikipedia
</a>

worked just fine.

[Scott_Sauyet]

@Charlie_Veniot

(You can see the final results at BAM Docs — User Guide and Programming Reference for BASIC Anywhere Machine.)

This will probably look more understandable after a night’s sleep. My brain’s not up for it now. I’ll try again tomorrow.

[Scott_Sauyet]

@TW_Tones

That is wikitext in a template?

• If so it is in some ways a different question.

Yes, sorry if I didn’t make that clear. My fundamental question has been answered aptly by you and by several others. No: that is not the state of the art. It’s overcomplicated. For some reason, it seemed that everything else I tried that wasn’t a macro call from a template was failing. But one of your solutions did exactly what I wanted to without that macro, and with simpler code than I had written so far.

@TW_Tones

@Scott_Sauyet

The hardest problem is to remember to avoid thinking of macros as functions.

• What do you mean by this? I don’t seem to have this problem. “macros is macros”.

A section of GrokTiddlyWiki describes this well. I’ve reread it multiple times but it clearly still hasn’t sunk in. For me a function is a callable bit of code that at runtime offloads some of the common work into one place. A macro instead (and I’ve use LISP-style programming languages which have powerful macro systems) simply imports a chunk of work into your current workflow. These are distinct, but related processes.

I get the impression that this cognitive problem is one that affects many programmers trying to learn TW.

@TW_Tones

I suspect you are missing a particular concept, or cognitive model

Oh, I’m quite certain that’s the case. I describe my problems as being confused by syntax, but I know that truly it’s fundamental concepts I still don’t have down.

[Charlie_Veniot]

@Scott_Sauyet

Thanks for your reply. It’s good to know others have gone through this too.

Over time, “regressing” (i.e. the semantic meaning of macro falling back to the meaning in some non-TW context) becomes far and fewer between.

The most important thing you can do is banish the term “macro call” and “macro calling” from your vocabulary and communications/notes/whatever about TiddlyWiki.

Find alternative terminology that reminds you best what TW macro is and does. For me, it is “macro reference” (which reminds me, strangely, of macro substitution/transclusion).

[TW_Tones]

@Charlie_Veniot

TW macro

Interestingly for me, an given I have used a range of macros over the years, inside Microsoft OS and applications, command line coding, keyboard macros etc… when someone says macros I ask “what kind?”.

One day I came across “tiddlywiki macros”, and whilst I had some preconceptions of macros, I quickly lost that, and since then I have learned “TiddlyWiki Macros” are their own thing.

For some reason when people say things like “TiddlyWiki Macros are not real macros, functions or like programming”, or are “a (very sophisticated) markup language” etc… I get a little agitated,

I am not agitated with the person (they are after all just, trying to understand and need to “see it” based on the axioms they are familiar with) but agitated that these descriptions, are ultimately miss leading. I feel like stepping in and putting a nuanced argument, that the “statement is not quite correct”. But then it would be like arguing against shadows, the shadows being peoples “transient rationalisations”. So I let those statements stand unchallenged.

My agitation comes from the fact there remains a lot of different “conceptualisations out there in the community”, many of which are not quite right, but necessary on their journey, but in many ways, nothing can be done about that.

• I expect some of my “conceptualisations” are wrong too.

[TW_Tones]

Here is my first post leveraging ChatGPT;

How do macros differ from other coding?

Macros are a type of programming construct that are used to generate code at compile time. Macros are a feature of many programming languages, including C, C++, and Lisp.

The main difference between macros and other coding is that macros operate on the source code itself, while other coding constructs operate on the runtime environment. Macros allow you to manipulate the code before it is compiled, while other constructs are used to manipulate the program’s behavior during runtime.

In other words, macros are a way to programmatically generate code that is executed at compile-time, while other coding constructs are used to generate code that is executed at runtime.

Macros are often used to automate repetitive tasks or to generate code based on complex rules or patterns. They can be very powerful, but they can also be difficult to use correctly. Macro code can be difficult to read and understand, and can be prone to errors if not used carefully.

Overall, macros are a specialized type of programming construct that can be very useful in certain situations, but they require a good understanding of the programming language and careful use to avoid errors.

Reading this you see perhaps where the confusion comes from ;

• TiddlyWiki is not compiled at all
• In some ways it is not even interpreted
• It is ultimately “rendered”, in keeping with it as markup.
• It kind of has two runtimes, as the wikitext, widgets and macros are parsed, then a final parsing of that result into HTML.
• Then to make it just a little more mind blowing changes are propagated throughout the whole wiki with an efficient “only refresh a minimum” mechanism.

But as above this is true for tiddlywiki.

macros operate on the source code itself

[Charlie_Veniot]

That ChatGPT thing, I can’t say I’m a fan.

I much prefer Macro (computer science) - Wikipedia

To me, the biggest problem with macros in TiddlyWiki is the documentation titled “calling macros”.
There is nothing being called. (That phrasing just triggers “call a function/procedure” thinking.)

Or Chat GPT …

[Scott_Sauyet]

@TW_Tones

For some reason when people say things like “TiddlyWiki Macros are not real macros, functions or like programming”, or are “a (very sophisticated) markup language” etc… I get a little agitated,

I just want to point out that it was not TW macros but wikitext that I described as “a (very sophisticated) markup language”. Maybe that will reduce your agitation a bit.

And I don’t think people are saying that TW macros are not real macros. They are very much akin to macros in C and in LISP. But for whatever reason (perhaps because there are no functions or procedures (or are they coming with parameterized transclusion?), some programmers latch onto them as the closest thing available. They overlap with function execution, but they are most definitely not the same.

@TW_Tones

I feel like stepping in and putting a nuanced argument, that the “statement is not quite correct”. But then it would be like arguing against shadows, the shadows being peoples “transient rationalisations”.

I know the feeling. I’m a fairly senior-level programmer, and do a lot of training an mentoring, and it’s difficult to know when to go beyond, “Yes, that’s the general idea…” to “Sure, but technically, you also need to consider…”

I usually struggle quite a bit here before I ask questions. In the background, I’m also starting to work on my own TW documentation, meant for people who think like I do. I won’t be ready to share it for some months, but I hope it will be a useful resource. It’s not the sort of thing that would fit into the main TW page, but maybe parts of it will make it in there. Maybe, if all goes well, it can help the next programmers who come along with similar issues to mine.

@TW_Tones

Here is my first post leveraging ChatGPT;

How do macros differ from other coding?

I haven’t tried ChapGPT yet, but I’m reasonably impressed with this answer. I think it’s fairly accurate, especially the first two paragraphs. The last two sound more attuned to C/C++ than the other, more powerful and yet still more intuitive, versions in something like LISP. But the important point here for TW is the distinction between source code and runtime. The closest TW has to a runtime is rendering/rerendering, and I keep finding myself thinking of Macros operating during this, when in fact they happen earlier.

@TW_Tones

TiddlyWiki is not compiled at all

I’d argue that. Compilation is the process of converting from one language to another, usually from a higher-level language to a lower one. I think the wikitext → HTML/DOM transformation can reasonably be called compilation.

[Charlie_Veniot]

@Scott_Sauyet

I just want to point out that it was not TW macros but wikitext that I described as “a (very sophisticated) markup language”. Maybe that will reduce your agitation a bit.

I personally do not like calling “WikiText” the whole gamut of features in TiddlyWiki.

I can’t help but consider, because it makes more sense to my big picture: “WikiText” to me is just the Tw-markdown, the non-visual widgets are Tw-script, the visual widgets are Tw-Gadgets (or Tw-Controls), and filtering operations are Tw-QueryLanguage (TwQL), and then TwPragmas (the meta stuff.)

I can’t explain it, but the clear delineation is very calming/soothing for me. Otherwise, I have the same kind of anxiety as the kid who doesn’t like the mashed potatoes touching the peas…

[Scott_Sauyet]

@Charlie_Veniot

In the URL, I only put the “book” part of the URL. “IA::” indicates the book is at the Internet Archive.

I did read through and understand your tBib template. Thank you for sharing. I had one quick question. I understand nth, and in fact often name a function that for a similar purpose. But using it without a parameter, as nth[], seems to be a much less explicit way of writing first[]. Does it offer any advantages over first[]? Did it simply predate first[]? Or am I misunderstanding your usage here?

[Charlie_Veniot]

@Scott_Sauyet

nth[]

That’s just a cognitive-semantics thing.

“nth” to me is “give me this single one at this position”. So when I happen to use nth, it is because that’s what I’m thinking.

“first” to me is “give me the first x items”. So in that filter, I was not thinking in terms of “give me the first however many items.”

When I see the “first” operator, I immediately get in the mindset “oh, we’re getting the first X items”, and I quickly get a picture in my head that goes in that direction.

If the next thing I see is “1”, my immediate reaction is “what the heck”?

When I see the “nth” operator, I immediately get in the mindset “oh, I’m getting just one of the items in the list”, and I quickly get a picture in my head that goes in that direction.

I always say I have the reflexes of a sloth, but the sponge is always going at the speed of light, developing a highly intertwingled “picture”, and the second I run into something that isn’t matching the picture, then the entire picture makes no sense anymore (it totally falls apart), and I find myself having to start all over.

[Scott_Sauyet]

@Charlie_Veniot

I can’t explain it, but the clear delineation is very calming/soothing for me. Otherwise, I have the same kind of anxiety as the kid who doesn’t like the mashed potatoes touching the peas…

Are you quoting the movie Toys?

• Patrick Zevo : I can’t even eat. The food keeps touching. I like military plates, I’m a military man, I want a military meal. I want my string beans to be quarantined! I like a little fortress around my mashed potatoes so the meatloaf doesn’t invade my mashed potatoes and cause mixing in my plate! I HATE IT when food touches! I’m a military man, you understand that? And don’t let your food touch either, please?

@Charlie_Veniot

“nth” to me is “give me this single one at this position”. So when I happen to use nth, it is because that’s what I’m thinking.

“first” to me is “give me the first x items”. So in that filter, I was not thinking in terms of “give me the first however many items.”

Ah, to me I usually don’t even have a parameterized first. I use it as in languages with head and tail. head or first simply mean the first item in the list. tail or rest means the remainder of the list. (And I’m perfectly happy with car and cdr if they mean anything to you.) A parameterized first reads quite well, but it’s not my default setting.

I would not have asked if you used nth[1], but nth[] simply feels obscure to me. In any case, thanks for sharing.

[Charlie_Veniot]

@Scott_Sauyet

I would not have asked if you used nth[1], but nth[] simply feels obscure to me. In any case, thanks for sharing.

Yeah, it is kind of strange. I always register “nth” as meaning position 1 unless specified otherwise.

I’d love to be a study subject for some university psychology class.

If I had a dime for every time I step back and wonder: “why do I think this way” or “why does this way feel better to me”?

Not getting any dimes, but I am my own free source of never-ending entertainment.

[Scott_Sauyet]

@Charlie_Veniot

I am my own free source of never-ending entertainment.

And really, what more can one ask for in life?